EP2. Accessibility is really about decency with Brian Evans

February 26, 2021 Thomas Morrell

Brian Evans is a resident and worker in the flourishing downtown of Newark, NJ. Receiving a B.S. in Human-Computer Interaction from NJIT he has quickly become a defender of the user, advocate for the differently-abled, and destroyer of churn and red tape. Passionate about designing experiences to help people get control of their financial lives. He holds a CPACC certification from the IAAP, yay acronyms! This means he finds web accessibility to be an important part of his profession. His hobbies include woodworking and writing quirky bios.

I worked with Brian at Prudential Financial for a few years and it was originally a conversation I had with Brian which led me to start this podcast. So I was super excited when he agreed to be the first interview guest on the show. I have to thank Brian as well for being such a trooper as we ran into a number of technical issues and even lost a small snippet of the recording. Thanks, Brian!

Brian discovered and was turned on to UX design from Code for America. https://www.codeforamerica.org/

Brian and I talk a lot about web accessibility. I love his line about "Accessibility really comes down to decency". I asked Brian about accessibility specifically because he was my go-to resource when we worked together for all accessibility-related questions as he always had the right answer.

"Accessibility really comes down to decency"

Brian and some of his friends have been brewing beer to keep active during this pandemic. I got the opportunity to sample some and it was delicious. Pockets and Polar bear plunge were my favorites. Follow them on Instagram.

Catch up with Brian:

LinkedIn. https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianevansux/

Twitter. https://twitter.com/briana11y

Website. https://bevans.design/

Podcast Music:

My podcast music was created by Davy Wreck. David is a student of mine at Springboard.com, but he also happens to be an amazing musician, artist, and dancer. I can't thank him enough for making this track for me. You can follow Davy in Spotify or you can listen to some of his Designer related playlists on Soundcloud. https://soundcloud.com/sevenpercent/sets

Transcript!

Thomas  0:09

Welcome to the user flows podcast. My name is Thomas Morrell, and I will be your host. This is a show where we'll talk about UX design and UX careers. Today we are joined by Brian Evans, who is the senior UX designer at Incedo Inc. Brian, I guess I'll start it off by just letting you kind of tell us who you are, what you're doing, and where you're headed.

Brian Evans  0:24

All right, thank you very much. So, as you said, my name is Brian Evans, I work over at Incedo, which is both a services and a product company. And I've been working there for about a little over a year and a half. And you know, we do a really great job kind of providing client services to financial companies, telecom companies, health care companies. And then we also build our own products like an analytics platform and a payment platform. So we do a bit of both of that outside consulting, but we are also building platforms ourselves. So it's a good mix of stuff we do.

Thomas  1:15

Nice, very nice. So that's a good field to be in healthcare and finance in New Jersey is huge, there were a few reasons why I wanted to have you as kind of the first guest on this show. And number one is that the whole idea for the show was kind of sparked by a conversation that you and I had had a while back. And that conversation was around kind of how do we take our you to know, Junior designers and kind of train them up, or take people who were visual designers, UI developers, and kind of teach them or guide them and how to become more, I know full-stack or T shaped designers, whatever you want to call it. So they could run kind of the whole product design spectrum. And after a number of our colleagues got laid off, but I really enjoyed the kind of passion and energy you brought to that. And also the kind of the way you treated people. I always referred to you as the mayor of Newark

Brian Evans  2:09

So really, one of the first points you hit on was about the like, how do we bring up designers, Junior designers, and I think it's actually I think people set their expectations sometimes a little low with people. So you have you know, these, you know, the design itself is a very like multidisciplinary field. So when you think about, like, who contributes to the overall design of a product, you have a lot of people, right, you have like the product owner, the designers, the developers, but I think there's a lot, sometimes a lot of people you don't think about you have like, you know, your legal team, and you have operational folks, client success, success folks, all of these kinds of folks come in, and they have an impact on the design too. So when you have folks who have very diverse skill sets and come from sometimes those chain gentle areas of design, they end up becoming really strong designers. So that's one of the things that really, I think leads to wanting to bring in a lot of people to junior designers and really enhance their skill sets, you know, yeah, right on.

Thomas  3:39

And that's definitely one of the things I noticed about you is you're very inclusive, very collaborative. And I really liked that mindset. And you taught me a lot about, you know, facilitating, and kind of working with a team. And I really enjoyed that a lot about, you know, working with you is did that come from something else before you got into the to design? Or is that just kind of your mindset all the time?

Brian Evans

I would overall say like, it probably mostly came from, I mean, in college, I did like a lot of different leadership roles on campus. You know, I was part of a fraternity, we started a bit of a dance marathon. So it always was the need and like those volunteer is to really be very collaborative, keep people motivated. So I think that went a lot into how I try to lead design initiatives from that. And then when you kind of take that volunteer one, then when people are obviously getting paid and have to bother with it, it makes it even that much better to work with you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's very cool. Very cool. So I know a little bit about your background. But I believe you had a background in some kind of accessibility work, which kind of led you to design is that correct? In a way. So I mean, I really got my start off. I was a weird 17-year-olds who knew he kind of wanted to be a UX designer. So I didn't know that that was eventually going to be my career path. But I had since I guess I started so early. I had a bit of a winding way there.

I guess it really started out I did start off in a research lab in college like a behavioral psychology one. And we were you know, analyzing apps doing user research stuff. But eventually, through them, I found this group called Code for America. And that turned me on to this concept of, open data.

What open data really is, is it's this concept that the government should have its information accessible to people, right. So that got my kind of mind spark towards this idea of like openness and sharing. And that later on in my career, I found out that, you know, people with disabilities can use technology. And the ones who can use technology often have roadblocks and barriers because of the way that the technology was presented. So kind of my thought of this idea of like, there's this idea of open data and the government should be able to share and then I found, you know, this issue that like government and private corporations, at times, don't have their website set up in the right way to let the people with disabilities use it. So I kind of saw this natural pairing of like, became really interested in that area, too.

I ended up falling into accessibility from there because it was a big interest of mine. And then I did that for a while to really gain the skill set. But I did kind of feel like design was still calling me because that was my original intention. So and I kind of weaseled my way onto a UX team to really get my start after my entry-level kind of accessibility role, which I loved. I really loved working in accessibility.

Thomas

Okay, and how exactly did you weasel your way in?

Brian Evans

It's actually a funny story. So I mean, obviously, like I was working with the design team and the development teams a lot when I had my accessibility role at first. And then what happened was, there was like this big reorg in the company I was at, and they needed like a scrum master for like, building their design system. I know a little bit about Scrum, but I've never really been a scrum master before. So I went, you know, there was an initiative really led by their UX design like VP at the time. So I kind of went to him. I said, Well, you know, I could be your Scrum Master, we could, you know, kind of set something up. And I kind of talked to my boss about it, we got it set up. So he's like, Oh, do you know how to be a scrum master? I was like, Yeah, yeah, sure. I could, you know, I love being you know, I know all the scrum ceremonies and all that. That was a bit of a bluff.

Basically, that was a Friday. And I think by that Monday, I spent like 20 hours, like researching Scrum, and agile processes and trying to, you know, make sure I could do it when the time came, you know, very nice. Well, it all worked out in the end.

Thomas  7:38

So the accessibility thing, which is a hard word for me to say, is really kind of been on my mind lately. When I first started working, where we work together, I didn't know much about accessibility, most of what I designed was really kind of flashy, and just very much kind of visual-focused. And we never really gave a ton of thought to accessibility, which we really should have, of course. But now, in the last years, no, I had two children diagnosed with dyslexia. Mm-hmm. And it's really gotten me thinking a lot about, you know, how to make things easier for people who have trouble reading the way we read, consuming information, the way we consume it. And so I've been thinking a lot more about it lately. For those kinds of uninitiated, to web accessibility, could you kind of dive into that a little bit as to what it is and why it's important?

Brian Evans

Yeah, I mean, the Why is simple. I mean, if we aren't intentionally making our sights and experiences inclusive to people with disabilities were made, maybe it's not intentional, but it is explicitly discriminating against us. Because, you know, if you if we, if we create these experiences, and people can't perceive them, or understand them, or operate them, we're leaving people out of the picture who for just the reason of a certain way they are, which is a, it's a big ethical issue. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. So I think it really comes down to decency, but I think part of the problem that exists is not until you're a professional in a corporate environment for a while, you may not even come up with this, like there's a challenge where these kind of concepts aren't always taught at schools, even you know what I mean?

Thomas  9:25

Yeah, it's definitely something that went completely missed in my schooling, that's for sure. So I went back after many years of working in design, and kind of put myself through an HCI course. Through a big name University. It was a great course but we did not touch on accessibility at all.

Brian Evans  10:00

Yeah, I also have a bachelor's degree in HCI. And we maybe we did briefly touch on it and like an extracurricular kind of activity. Don't ever really did any of our actual core classwork. So I think another thing that does help kind of like you were saying is once you, like know someone who has a disability that gets impacted by something. Technology, then you begin to think about a lot more, you know what I mean?

Thomas  10:11

Yeah, absolutely. And some of the kind of the, I guess the comments I see around on the different design blogs and stuff is like, Well, you know, why should we focus that much? It's really kind of niche.

But it's really not, it's really quite a large group of people.

Brian Evans  10:46

Well, not only is it a large group of people, so I mean, if you look, and you really count all the different folks who get impacted by web technologies, it is actually a huge swath of the population. But beyond that, I think what some people forget about accessibility is like, when you make your site's accessible, you're also typically making them have better search engine optimization, you're also making them you're kind of error proofing it in certain ways for other folks. And, you know, disability is also kind of one of the only kind of protected categories of folks that you can fall in and out of also, right, if you end up, let's say, you know, breaking your arm, right? That's even something where you may need some type of assistive technology, right? So what it comes down to is, is like, when we make things accessible to people, we’re also just building better products overall. And there are these kinds of side and tangential benefits to making accessible sites as well.

Thomas  11:22

Oh, absolutely. I agree. Like instead of, you know, big, large blocks of copy, having, you know, that translated into something like video, or audio content, is a perfect way to kind of make it accessible to even more people. And also to just anybody who wants to view it a different way.

Brian Evans  11:40

Yeah, we used to have kind of like what to that point to, it does work the opposite way to where usability is so crucial to accessibility because if you have like a usability problem on your site when it gets rendered by that assistive technology, you're gonna end up with maybe just a usability problem. But then when you talk about how it is to like assistive technology and the accessibility nightmare, right?

Thomas

So I guess if somebody wanted to learn more, say, somebody who's been working in the field, or somebody who's getting introduced to the field of UX and product design, what's like the best resource for them to go to, to really dive into this? Yeah, so I mean, I guess you'd have to talk whether you're kind of like, paying for the educational pieces, or you kind of self-starter. I mean, there are a lot of, you know, kind of like webinars and kind of educational resources in the free space. But if you want to go the paid route.

So like DQ is a consulting company, and they have a bit of an accessibility training course, it's pretty good. Okay. WebAIM is another one they have, well, at least before the pandemic, they had these, like off-site workshops out in Utah that were very popular now. And then I know there is a professional association around accessibility called the IWA p, the International Association of accessibility professionals. So they probably also have some paid and unpaid, like research or training kind of modules. But then there are things like LinkedIn learning and you know, Coursera, things like that, too. Very cool. Yeah. And I'll try to find those links, and I'll attach him to the show notes. I appreciate that. So looking back to when you first kind of got started.

Thomas  13:26

Is there anything you kind of wish you had known as you kind of made your way into the UX field?

Brian Evans  13:33

For me, I, it was really a lot around like, so I started off as a UX designer who had really good concepts for like wireframing but not always visually, I would, I would probably urge myself to take a little more of an interest in the visual design part that took me a little longer to grow them either skill sets, I would say, okay, because I'm someone who really does, I do want to, I always like to try to fill that full-stack row where I'm really kind of doing all of the parts of it. And really kind of seeing things from the front end and finishing that off. So I love going all the way from research to visual design. So we've gotten into the visual design part a little sooner and had a little more confidence in my ability to that I remember it was a little anxiety writing to start doing visual stuff after I've never seen myself as an artistic kind of person. That was a little difficult for me. So I'd say just believing in myself there are a little more not having that imposter syndrome creep up on me.

Thomas

Yeah. And that imposter syndrome. I think that's something everybody deals with, like I was, I guess the opposite of you, where I came from visual design, and then worked my way into UX design. So you know, leading like a research project or leading, you know, facilitating a design sprint or something like that, which I have to thank you very much for for helping me kind of learn how to do that.

Brian Evans  14:59

Oh, that was a blast, man. That was awesome.

What Tom was talking about is we had a, I don't know the last company we work together, there were me and a coworker Her name's Caryn. And we started up a big training program in the company to teach people how to run those kinds of Jake Knapp, Sprint book sprints. And those are, it was really fun. I think we trained almost like 200 people. And then Tom did a great job getting a lot of our kind of training and reference material together and helping us with that.

Thomas  15:33

Yeah, that was a blast. That was not what I expected would be my first project working there. But it was definitely a one to remember. And it's something I still use fairly often. If it's not, you know, facilitating a full design sprint, it's, you know, taking one of the exercises from that and doing just a quick, you know, a little workshop comes in handy all the time.

Brian Evans  15:51

I really hope that book is completely mandatory for every HCI in New York student at this point. Yeah, that is, there's a lot of really good stuff in there.

Thomas

Absolutely. I want to kind of hit on the A, what it's like to work in the field of UX designer. So I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions, kind of the opposites of each other. You know, what is the highlight of your career so far? And what is the absolute worst thing that's happened thus far?

Brian Evans  16:19

Yeah. So I would say personally, like one of the main highlights of my career was, it's not even one. But it's like these moments you have when you're developing as a professional, where you start to expand on a new skill set, I'd say those are cool. Like, I had a point where I was able to take on my first intern and kind of manage them a bit. And then I recently had a point where I was able to bring in my first full-time staff who reported to me and, you know, going through performance reviews and things like that, it really kind of makes you feel good. It's like it's also kind of like when you launch that product, that kind of instant rush of dopamine, you get that like instant satisfaction of like, Oh, I made that or like, Oh, I suppose or there's a lot of them. But it's like, there's like these continual highlights that happen when you're working, which is always really great.

Thomas  17:09

Love that.

Brian Evans

Yeah. And then when it comes to the worst side now, I mean, it's always could be tough when you have like a tough client, right? I mean, I always think about the things you want to avoid in your career, making sure that you your services are wanted, in a sense. So sometimes, you know, someone might be kind of forced to collaborate with you. And, you know, they aren't really looking for your help, though. They have their own vision, and they just want you to execute that. If you're a designer, like me who I really, at the end of the day, I really do put like the kind of whole heart and soul into motion into it. I'm not someone who's like a great production designer. I really put myself in there rather than be dictated a solution. I have, I've had to work in those sorts before. And I do struggle with that. So those are some of my worst times.

Thomas  18:13

Okay. And so you brought up interns, and I remember working with you, you kind of ran the whole intern, I don't know what even call it kind of program. So you went through you look through their resumes, their video introductions, and everything. So for the people out there who are looking to get their first internship, to do that kind of what are the things you look for in an intern the most when they're trying to introduce themselves either through resume video, portfolio, etc.

Brian Evans  19:00

Yeah, for me, it's, it's, it's a combination of things. I love to see people who think outside the box of it and get very creative with it, especially if you're going to be a designer, but I like this a little bit of creativity match with a little bit of like, that kind of raw, unadulterated passion. Do you know what I mean? So for instance, the interns that we had kind of at our last company, they were all very kind of fantastic. They were all extremely passionate, they were hungry like it's I really look to see that interns are hungry to do great things and not shy away there. Those are always the ones that I like to bring in and they can be hard to find though you know, yep. I love there is this kind of instance of a I heard about and I've never worked at Home Depot, but I heard there is this like intern at Home Depot once who sent in their like resume is a toolbox and in the toolbox, your wrench and you would like to pull down a little sheet on the wrench and had like all of their work experience and they had like, I don't know like a pipe and it had like their GPA on or something below their resume was a toolbox like that kind of stuff.

Thomas  19:47

That's awesome. Yeah, I saw one the other day where a copywriter sent a, you know, a creative director of Venmo request for $50,000. This is a job application. Yeah, Love it. Love it.

So what is your kind of, I guess, biggest inspiration in your career?

Brian Evans

I mean, I'm inspired every day with like folks I work with and like the folks that really have subject matter expertise in the areas, but like in terms of, I guess, like designers who inspire me specifically, I'm the number one that comes into my head is probably Jared spool. He has a really great mind around design. I love how he thinks about the scale in order of design looking at from like, this, like organizational level to this ecosystem level, and then all the way down to like, the screen level that stuff. I don't know, he's just kind of speaks to how my brain works, I guess. Yep. In terms of the impact they're having on the world, I think, Whitney Quesenberry, who from the Center for Civic design in New Jersey, she's doing great stuff around designing ballots and elections and vote like automatic voter registration forms. I think she's probably the biggest secret who's having the biggest impact on the US right now. And she's doing really great stuff. So she extremely inspires me.

Thomas

Yeah. Right on. Yeah. Okay. I've never heard ever, that's great. Love to be introduced to new people.

Brian Evans  21:22

I hope I said her name, right. I'm actually terrible. She's awesome. If I did, she's listening. I'm so sorry.

Thomas  21:46

Yeah, that's okay. We'll try to research and get it right in the show notes. Or, if we can. So if you were, you know, talking to a group of students just getting started thinking about doing either, you know, General Assembly, or one of the other kind of boot camps, or going to college for UX, you know, kind of what would you say to them? What would be, you know, what would you tell them their mindset had to be?

Brian Evans  21:53

Yeah, I would say this, I would say, you know, do look at the program you're entering and the financial responsibilities that are around it. Obviously, traditional colleges are expensive. One thing that is nice about some of these traditional college programs, as they do let you go pretty deep like, in my bs of HCI program, I was able to take a database in class, I learned how to develop I learned psychology, I took an improv class, I actually thought the improv class probably taught me more than anything else about UX. Okay, and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that. But you do really get a multi-disciplinary kind of approach to design when you do these bachelor programs. Yeah, but you know, they're also cost a lot of money. So you do have to make that consideration. And, you know, what could you learn outside of school too. So I mean, I think there's also a really good use in some of these boot camp kinds of programs. I mean, Jared spool has a really in-depth two-year, program through this is a group called center centre. It’s spelled like, the American way, and then the British way or something. But that program looks amazing. I've never really engaged too many folks who am I but it looks really awesome. But I definitely have worked with a lot of like career foundry, General Assembly people. And, you know, I think with those, you have to realize that you're getting a very focused education, and then you take your own responsibility to branch out and be multidisciplinary. Because when you're just during the boot camps, it can be a little tough, immediately transitioning into the career field. So you need to make sure that it's you're more than just like a cookie-cutter designer, you know.

Thomas

Yeah, absolutely. is what's funny is, you're not the first person I've heard talk about the improv as being really helpful when moving into design, which is kind of funny. And I guess it's that whole concept of the Yes. And where you kind of take somebody's comment, no matter how outlandish or crazy it is, and kind of build upon it, and keep it moving. Right?

Brian Evans  23:55

It's iterative, literature-driven designs, very iterative.

Thomas

That's really interesting. I'll maybe I'll have to sign up for an improv class. Never thought about that before.

Brian Evans  24:04

Me and another designer from our last company car, and we actually did agile camp, like two years ago, and we had an improv talk. Oh, that's how I, how agile and design and improv all kind of work together in harmony.

Thomas

Okay, well, you should reprise that. That talk and do it again, because I'd love to hear it. But, um, so, you know, what's on the horizon for you? What's next?

Brian Evans  24:27

Yeah, I mean, so, you know, right now, I've just been kind of rising the ranks where I'm at here didn't see through, and they've been a really kind of great company so far, really enjoying the team I'm working with, they're really bright people, especially, you know, we so we have a Great Design Studio. We also have a very great data science team. So I've been learning a lot more about this kind of quantitative analysis and how do we, you know, do things like machine learning and AI and bring that into our features better?

So that's been a great outgrowth opportunity. I'm really hoping after the pandemic to get out and some more speaking engagements, going to more conferences and you know, potentially even giving some workshops. So that's got me on the horizon.

Thomas  25:15

Nice. Nice. Yeah, I'm looking forward to doing the same.

It's been about a year, I think, since I went well, more than a year now, since I went to my last conference. And that one was a game changer for me. I loved it. And I can't wait to get back to meeting with people like in person. But might be a little while yet, but we'll get there.

Brian Evans

Yeah. Back in November, I went to the I think it was either a very was Nero or Miro, but one of the kinds of online collaboration tools. Oh, yeah, they had, and I thought that would be pretty appropriate, considering it so great to kind of go and see them. Nice.

Thomas  25:52

So I would have to bring up the beer. Because it was fantastic. And I appreciate you, you're making the trip, you know, during a pandemic to bring me a six-pack of beer that was very thoughtful. So tell us about the beer. How'd that get started?

Brian Evans  26:10

Um, so yeah, I mean, last January, me and my friends were like, wouldn't it just be cool if we started making beer? So we started making some beer back in the kind of early January of 2020. February, and, you know, we made a few terrible batches of beer that, you know, barely had any alcohol and kind of off, but then eventually, you know, we kind of just stuck to it, we each kind of, and you know, it's actually funny. It's a group of designers who did it with, like, mechanical engineer and some other smart folks. But, uh, you know, essentially, we each kind of picked an area to specialize in. And then next thing we knew our beer started coming up better. I was the man I can tell you a lot about yeast.

Thomas  26:51

Very nice. Well, I did. I love the labels. I love the characters, the bears, all over the beers. It's fantastic. I do have a confession to make is that I just finally last night, drank the cranberry one. Because I was a bit scared of drinking a cranberry beer. I was afraid I wasn't gonna like it. And so up until last night Pockets was my favorite.

Brian Evans

But right. That's our Cornerstone one.

Thomas

I gotta tell you, though, the cranberry one, I think might be now my top.

Brian Evans  27:27

That's awesome. That one was our good friend Evan’s recipe. He did well on that one.

Our friend Sage, he's actually an environmental engineer. He came up with the idea for that label. And I helped them executed. So it was good. It was like a polar bear jumping off of like a side of a cliff.

Thomas  27:49

Yeah, I love the polar bear.

Polar Bear plunge. That's what it was called. That's right, perfect. So anything else you'd like to, you know, say to the people out there, hopefully listening to the show.

Brian Evans  28:01

I mean, I think you know, your shows mostly targeted towards growing UX designers. So I would say, be aware of what imposter syndrome is, but don't let it get the better of you.

And just know that when you do have those feelings, it's more likely to be imposter syndrome, and not likely to be that you're a terrible designer who's never going to succeed in life. So just remember, that's the little imposter in your head talking and they're suspicious.

So that's, I guess, the big one. And then beyond that, just be a sponge and be very driven. And just always try to not perform to the level that you like you're at, but to the level you want to be at. So always try to think about how do you go forward and take that next step without anyone telling you to be that kind of self-driven person?

Thomas

Oh, that's great advice. Thanks, Brian. Appreciate that. And so where can people go? Or where should people go to connect with you if they want to know more?

Brian Evans  29:01

So you can definitely go to my LinkedIn, which I'm Brian Evans UX is my little LinkedIn handle. Or you can follow me on Twitter. I'm @briana11y. A little shorthand for accessibility.

Those are two spots. I'll see. You can follow, you can directly reach out to me and my portfolio is B Evans dot design. And they'll go right to my email, there's a contact button.

Thomas

Very cool. Well, Brian, I can't thank you enough for joining us tonight. Thanks for being the inaugural guest for the show. Hope you're gonna have a lot more people soon. And some of the people we mentioned tonight, I'm definitely going to invite on. So I look forward to speaking to them as well.

Brian Evans

It's great. It's like you're gonna get to meet our whole crew.

Thomas Morrell  29:50

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I tell you, working with you guys was a big opening to me because I was always kind of the sole contributor. So working with you and the rest of the team really opened me up to actually like talking to other people about design, which was really exciting. And so, definitely appreciate you guys for that.

Brian Evans

And now you have a whole podcast, man how times change.

Thomas  30:12

Yep. And so I mean, and honestly like that conversation we had is kind of what led to this. And then I started mentoring UX students. And I thought you know, how do I scale that? And I thought the best way to do that would be to invite people like you onto the show to just talk about design, and how you made you know, a career out of this.

Brian Evans

Absolutely. It's the best career that I could have ever gotten.

Thomas  30:37

Absolutely, I agree with you, 100%. Thanks, man.

Brian Evans

No sweat. This is great. Okay, thank you so much for joining the first initial user flows podcast. Special thanks to Brian Evans for joining me today. It was really great to get all that input from him. And we'll try to do this say once a week, once every other week. We'll have UX designers, product designers, leaders from all walks of life. come in and talk about their experience, share that with you, and how you can apply that to your own career.

As you may have noticed, I am new to podcasting. So I will try my utmost to make the quality of the audio and everything better as I go. Should you have any tips for me, please reach out. And also if you have anything you'd like to talk about or hear about, please reach out to me probably the best place to do so is on Instagram, @userflows.live

Again, thanks so much for joining and we'll talk to you next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Some links to further your Accessibility education:

Brian's Inspirations:

Educating Yourself:

Just some bears brewing bears.

Catch up with Brian:

Podcast Music:

Transcript!