EP12. From UX Mentee to UX Mentor with Mariyam Elshrief
Today I’m speaking with Mariyam Elshrief a UX Designer at ServiceChannel in San Francisco, CA. I first met Mariyam when I interviewed her for a role at Prudential Financial. She was incredibly smart, able to think on her feet, and one of the best interviews I can remember having.
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That’s why I brought her on the show. At the time in her career, she didn’t have a ton of experience. What she lacked in professional experience though she made up for in curiosity and a ton of hackathons and personal projects that really showed a scope of knowledge far beyond her years of employment.
In this episode Mariyam shares her origin story, switching from a computer science degree to UX Design [5:45]. Her time as a boot camp student at General Assembly [3:00]. Her interviewing preparation tactics [10:30], hackathons [8:50], portfolios [15:00], advice for younger designers [18:50. But most importantly her journey from UX mentee looking for a career to UX mentor guiding others in their own journey [21:29]. It’s a great story and I hope you enjoy it.
Show Links
Mariyam on LinkedIn
Mariyam’s Website
Mariyam on ADPlist.org
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Transcript
Thomas Morrell 0:09 Welcome back to the User Flows Podcast, my name is Thomas Morrell, and this is a show where we talk about UX design and careers. I get to interview designers who I admire about their journey into the field and how they have ultimately have been successful in their roles. And we'll break all that down so that we can all learn together. So today I am joined by Mariyam Elshrief, who I got to work with very briefly, but she definitely left a lasting impression. And I'm really happy to connect with her again today, and I will let her introduce herself. Enjoy the show, everyone.
Now before we get started I really just want to say thank you to everyone who's been listening, we're just about to pass 1000 downloads, obviously, that's not a huge number but it is very exciting for me and it means a whole lot.
I'm putting up a survey. If you have a moment, I would love it if you would go visit my website at thomasmorrel.com/survey, and just let me know. Who you are, what you're getting out of the show, what you would like to see more of in the show. And how else I could help you. It should only take a few minutes of your time but it would be highly appreciated. And without further ado here's Mariyam, thanks.
So if you could please tell us a bit about yourself.
mariyam Elshrief 1:17 Absolutely. So how I got into the UX field is kind of a fun story, I came from many interests so in undergrad, I tried marketing, graphic design. I switched to computer science, a little bit of business and so I have many interests towards that kind of feel. And so, as a senior, I was in computer science, not wanting to be a software engineer, I truly despise coding. And at the end, I was like okay there it's not too late to kind of look for a field that I would like to kind of be passionate about and every day. I work every day in that field that I'm passionate about.
That's where I discovered UX I started first teaching myself through articles and free work jobs. And then I decided to take the step to join an official boot camp upon finishing undergrad and it's in a different field and just like switching into boot camp. Looking back at it, it's definitely the best decision I ever did for myself. I got into UX.
Thomas Morrell 2:21 Oh, very interesting that's um, that's pretty brave, senior year, decided to go a whole completely different route that's how did the parents take it.
Mariyam Elshrief 2:31 Oh, definitely, they're like, not as indecisive go I'm ruining my own career, I definitely got a lot of pushback from that even my friends, but I trusted my guts, I always knew that I wanted to work it's something that I'm very passionate about, and I knew that the way to grow it's or if it's something that you're passionate about, I know that not many people are lucky to do so. I'm very lucky to be able to actually mean that career and to do what I love every single day.
Thomas Morrell 2:55 Yeah, no, that's fantastic and it takes a lot of guts to just say, like, I know this isn't the right thing for me so I'm going to try something completely different. So, definitely, you know, much props to you for that. That's a. That takes a lot more guts than most 20-year-olds in college would have. So that's really exciting. And I'm glad you brought up General Assembly, I like to ask people about that because it seems like most of the people I've worked with, and most of the people I've interviewed on this show, went to one of the boot camps, and General Assembly is obviously one of the biggest ones, so could you kind of tell us a bit about what that experience was like and how that worked out for you.
Mariyam Elshrief 3:35 Yeah, absolutely. So actually in senior year when I decided I want to do the switch, I wasn't sure if I want to do this full-on commitment of the immersive force to pay that money to pay that time into general assembly and so I took their part-time courses in UX. And I remember that time it was like I really have fewer prices and more manageable prices, and I started taking a little bit and a deep dive into a little bit of UX fundamentals, it wasn't everything that you need to know about UX but it was UX fundamentals, and it was very good for me to just take that step into going to the immersive boot camp.
Most of the boot camp was very intense it was like from 8 am to 8 pm, you're doing nothing but collaborating talking to developers, and learning about UX and people a lot of people kind of quit, usually, after the first two weeks so if you complete after two weeks, that means you're in it for the long run. And I think it was way better because I want I was so as far as whether to do a master's and UX or to actually do a boot camp.
But then I did my own benchmark research on LinkedIn and saw people who went to that boot camp. Their job outcome was much higher and faster than those who went to Masters So got a master's degree. I'm not saying a master's degree doesn't get you there, but it's just a longer route, and it's not really unnecessary UX is mostly about experiences, and the industry experience you gain rather than you know the education you're getting right that's why I decided to order the boot camp.
Thomas Morrell 5:04 That's fantastic. I love hearing that and for the most part, I've seen everybody that's gone through these boot camps have a good amount of success, and I love that. I came across, you come across a post all the time on LinkedIn or Instagram or other places where you follow kind of the design community. And I always hear that question like you know are designing boot camps worth it. Are they garbage, are they. Phenomenal.
There are both sides of the story on either side, and I came across one, and there was a lot of really negative comments about it and I was kind of surprised because personally, I don't see much of a difference between the designers coming out of your design boot camps like General Assembly and springboard and those versus those who are coming out of universities, either masters or otherwise.
So, I'm really happy that you had a great experience with it and that's awesome. So, do you feel like studying computer science, kind of prepared you more so than maybe some of your peers, kind of making that transition from technology to, well the design of technology?
Mariyam Elshrief 6:14 Well, to me frankly on edge, You can't only depend on General Assembly, even if you come from a completely different field like if you come from, you know, psychology, if you're coming from a doctor field, and you want to do this transition, you got to put all of your efforts into you can't just depend that the learning from General Assembly's that's it that's how I'm going to get the job, and that also invested in learning in yourself, self-learning networking, you know, growing your network, learning more outside of just like you know that eight to eight. And I feel with me because of my computer science, there's definitely where employers are very biased.
In terms of like, Oh, she has a tech background, that means that she's going to communicate with developers more efficiently than someone who's from a psychology background, even though this is not always the case, maybe a psychology background is just learning how to effectively communicate with developers, but they never got the chance or the employer had by a source that's what's kind of the toughest part about, you know hunting a job in tech, there's always going to be biased about you and you got to prove them wrong from the beginning. And I actually use that to my benefit, it wasn't may be true, I've never liked coding and I never want to code it so I never wanted to market myself as someone who can code and design, because I just never liked it.
However, A lot of employers just saw that as a first in terms of collaboration and I love them. To be honest, it's, as they say, fake it till you make it. It definitely, definitely helps in terms, in terms of you know, communicate with developers like definitely to their vocabulary at school, but I'm in no way insensitive call myself a developer, but it definitely did help towards employer biases.
Thomas Morrell 7:54 Oh, that's fantastic and so now that you have some experience under your belt. Do you think you'll just remove that from your resume, eventually, or will you kind of keep that in there, just in case it does kind of give you that leg up.
Mariyam Elshrief 8:09 I feel like with this day and age especially if you work in tech, it's always evolving. And now, what's really hot and trendy is AI, which AI requires a little bit of artificial understanding of machine learning and computer, and so I feel like I should go back into that just, you know, touch upon the surface, get a basic understanding what I need to know as a designer. And, you know what a developer needs to know in terms of design collaboration. And that's what we're an area I can grow in, I'm not necessarily going to take a developer route or a UX developer out, but definitely just to educate myself on that matter and stay up with the trends.
Thomas Morrell 8:48 And that's fantastic. That's great that you're even thinking about that there are so many new emerging technologies and keeping up with them can be difficult so spending some time doing that will only make you a bit more wiser and spread out your knowledge so you've. I remember when I interviewed you, you had a lot of those kinds of like either hackathon projects in your portfolio, or you did some other kind of workshop and stuff and I love that. What got you doing that was just to try to build out the experience outside of General Assembly.
Mariyam Elshrief 9:24 I also wanted to know what it's like working under pressure hackathons usually, you need to deliver in such a short amount of time at your attack and sit down in startups, that's what you usually do every single day. And so that's why I tried to contribute to hackathons as much as I can because I want it to show the potential employers that I'm really good at working under pressure and working with collaboration and I can deliver a deadline, even though if the design process is not pretty, and steady, you know, linear exit should be.
Not every employer is like that, but for me, it was a learning opportunity to know, sometimes things don't get done, just as they are in the books you just need to improvise and compromise to make all the product you know accomplish shipment or come to the delivery date, you know, and just showing that I think helped me a lot.
It gave me a sense of assertiveness, in a sense, when I was talking about my project I felt very assertive and confident in speaking about them just because I went through this kind of, you know challenges and compromises I had to go through. It wasn't the same as a company like I did not have successful outcomes, you know, we're like, oh I change this by x y and z and this caused the business to increase revenue by XYZ but in a sense, it was like a mini version of that.
Thomas Morrell 10:46 That's fantastic. And I do remember that interview very well. I think I was supposed to interview you with somebody else, and they couldn't show so it was just me and you. I was worried about that because it was like Oh should I pass this person up to the next round and then get yelled at for, you know, passing along the wrong person. But you were absolutely the right person. Of those, one of the best, because at that time I think I was interviewing one or two people a day. And so you're stood out I was like, Oh, this person's perfect, I'm sending you right through. And so, what kind of when you were going through the whole interviewing process. What kind of preparation, did you do, or put together for those.
Mariyam Elshrief 11:24 Absolutely. That's a good question so I always keep a notebook with all the common questions and for interviews, I use like articles like toptal. Medium articles you know UX collective articles about interviewing, even sometimes YouTube videos and like I have a small notebook like this and I just put all kinds of information for interviews on it. And on the day of the interview I kind of review them, I go through them.
I used to actually before interviewing record myself while interviewing someone, it would be only used for my own purposes it's like doing user research on myself, give myself pointers and feedbacks of what I did wrong and what went well, because one thing I made about, you know, the interviewing process is that you never get feedback. Now even though the product design process is all about feedback, it's still not given to product designers when they're interviewing so I could be making the same mistakes with every potential employer not knowing what I'm doing wrong. And so, I feel like that has helped improve my interviewing process very drastically.
Thomas Morrell 12:26 That's really cool, that's, that's such a good idea and that's actually the tip I got because I was always nervous when I had to present to do those things, especially like in front of a big crowd. And one of the tips I got was, you know, record yourself doing it, like, over and over and over again, and watch it until you kind of get numb to it, and you just kind of get a little bit more at ease and more at ease because if you wait until you know the day of to try it for the first time, It's gonna be nerve-racking, so that's a really great piece of advice I love that.
And speaking of learning how to think on your toes, from the hackathons I remember during the interview. We had some kind of problem with Microsoft Teams, and you couldn't share anything with me. And so you figured out a way to I think you had some of your portfolios put together in a keynote, and you were able to share the keynote with me. Live like with a link instead of you know, sharing your screen, which I just thought was an awesome kind of habit for designers to get into is sometimes your website's not gonna work. And so having things in some other type of formats like a Keynote or a PDF or something is a great tool. So was that kind of something. General Assembly had to do or was that something you picked up on your own.
Mariyam Elshrief 13:44 It's something I definitely picked up on my own, it's kind of like strategy thinking okay, now I'm stuck in a situation where do I go to plan a or plan B, right. I remember I was like oh my God, why isn't that going. As expected, and then I had to like I remember keynotes teacher about, you know, like, as if it's a live stream or presentation like a live stream, I'm like, I hope this works. I know for financial industries Prudential, had a lot of security on it so I might have not helped me share or you know share notes just the link that we've been open on I'm glad it worked because sometimes we're stuck in a situation where you need to decide on the spot, and your decision has to be very logical. About that, kind of, that's not portrayed that on that day.
Thomas Morrell 14:29 No, it was and that was great because I was like, Oh, what are we gonna do we're stuck because you have no idea how many times that happened, like working for a big financial institution, there's so many locks and blocks on almost everything, and that's just something else I need to get off my chest is for young designers out there.
Don't send a Google Drive link, especially if you're applying for a bank job. They won't be able to open it. So if your portfolio is and it's something like Google Drive, or like a dropbox link. Don't send it because no one will be able to open it so that's a really good point you bring up. Perfect. And so, I also saw you did the IBM Design Thinking, the design thinking certificate. How was that? Was that worth the time and investment?
Mariyam Elshrief 15:21 Yeah, so if you're in COVID they need their courses they're usually $500 to more on for free to help designers kind of grow in their field and help get them jobs.
A lot of times that time at COVID A lot of people got laid off. And so, as an initiative, IBM started doing these courses to help designers get back on their feet and be able to apply for a job at IBM is actually very leading in Design Thinking they have a lot of research published about how design thinking is revenue and help other enterprise companies that do prioritize, research, you know, I prioritize them and like kind of a good comparison between them.
And I wanted to kind of get that IBM Certificate, you know on my portfolio and resume, and it was very beneficial actually put that there was like a lot of games and resources and I kind of printed them for future reference. It was really beneficial because currently, I work at a SaaS Enterprise startup which I actually took an IBM course for enterprise startup, I was able to understand that kind of environment from that course as well.
Thomas Morrell 16:27 Oh, that's fantastic. And, you know, huge congratulations on the new job that's very exciting. How's all that going so far?
Mariyam Elshrief 16:34 That's totally very exciting. Definitely, I enjoy like kind of design team and the challenges that come, you know, working in an enterprise environment, you know, an enterprise feel, definitely a big switch, you know from financial FinTech to kind of, you know, enterprise software as a service, but I've definitely enjoyed kind of working there as well.
Thomas Morrell 16:55 Very cool. And so, I believe they're located in San Francisco. So are you going to be fully remote now and remote for the future, or what?
Mariyam Elshrief 17:06 So there are plans to go back to Office. However, no one knows so there's no kind of any active announcements that are going to telling us to kind of go the office, especially as UX designers we can do our job from the computer anywhere, even in like my developers are Europe, you know, and across all kind of the globe. That doesn't make a big difference if I go to the office are not the kind of waiting on the announcement.
Thomas Morrell 17:31 Yeah, yeah, we'll see it sounds like, things might go back into lockdown but we'll see where it goes. Yeah, we are. I guess remote for the foreseeable future. Eventually, we'll be back at least want to go back and do some in-person design sprints and those things but for me, remote work is wonderful. I wouldn't change the thing about it. I agree with you. I like being home, and where are you located, are you,
Mariyam Elshrief 17:59 I actually moved from New York to San Francisco. Okay, yeah. Yeah, thank you, thank you, it was a new step towards like you know my career and I kind of did that step, to grow forward in the UX industry and weird skill. But yeah, I definitely agree with you working remotely is way much better and efficient, like going to an office.
Thomas Morrell 18:21 Absolutely, well you move towards where all the jobs are actually moved away from everything I've moved down to Savannah Georgia so I'm very far from any big tech roles. That's all run on now so that's good. That's exactly that's so cool that you're in San Francisco. The last big trip I took before COVID hit like, I got back like right right as like the news was coming out that there was this thing out there was San Francisco and it was amazing, absolutely loved it.
Yeah, it's a good thing I didn't visit it when I was younger because I don't think I ever would have come back. It's a great city. So with all this experience now you have a few years under your belt. Any advice for that young computer science major who's decided, you know, they don't want to code, they don't want to do engineering, they might have an interest in design, how would, what would your advice be for them to start looking around.
Mariyam Elshrief 19:21 I say advocate for yourself. This was one of the biggest statements, you can like I've heard numerous times I wasn't good enough for a role or I wasn't good enough of a designer, and that's totally normal when you're doing a designer, there are hundreds and hundreds of blockers on your own, and when there's a junior designer role available.
There's too much demand like there's a lot of junior designers and just a little, a job for juniors out there. And one of the biggest thing I try to do is really network and learn from other people who are in the field, whether that's someone from a company that I like or someone that I see that's very educated in the field itself. And I feel like that has helped me learn and grow rapidly because I took this learning and actually kind of applied it to my kind of portfolio, my career, we interviewed all those little things really help. I also took a thought of mentorship and these mentors, my mentors really have helped me excel to have kind of a guided plan on okay, if one does not go well, we have to, she does not go well, we have three and assigning those last long term and short term goals.
This is very important for like for young designers short term, what do you want to do, do you want to just get your foot in the door or do you just want to work for a big corporation. Do you want to work for a startup or do you want to work for something that has your values and kind of deciding, like if there's imposter syndrome that comes with junior designers specifically trying to just get their foot in the door, and getting over that as a first step to actually getting that job.
Thomas Morrell 20:55 That the imposter syndrome that that doesn't go away, it's ever-present for everyone no matter your junior-senior or super professional. There's a guy, I took the course from Joe Natoli, and he's been teaching UX design for like, I don't know. 20 years or more a long time. But he, I was I follow him on LinkedIn and he just wrote this big long thing about, you know imposter syndrome doesn't go away like he still gets it every time he has to give like a keynote speech at like you know in front of 1000s of people he says he still has it which.
So it's just something you got to work past. And that's very cool that you kind of did all that work outside of, you know, first off your college education, and then General Assembly. That's just fantastic. And so you said you had a mentor, is that somebody you found through an organization or just somebody you found kind of on your own?
Mariyam Elshrief 21:52 Oh, I was something I did. New York City UXPA meeting the UX chapter in New York City. And I actually found a potential mentor and we approach each other and we saw some benefits, benefits from us being kind of mentor-mentee relationship, and we started having the session they were kind of like, even before I got my role at Prudential, they really helped structure me because I was speaking to someone that I thought really great, and I want it to be kind of on their path.
They helped me kind of structure. My job hunt structure what I want long term what I want short term, and just seeing that you would think, Oh wow, the job I think is not as bad as it seems it's much more clear when you have a plan, we have 123 to follow. And having that really has helped me and now there's a plus website called ADP.list, or adp.org, that helps kind of mentors admin see kind of connects, whether that's temporarily or it can be long periods of time. And I think that initiative is very amazing for young designers because they're able to learn from big people at Fang companies or just from people working in startups, people who have taught UX, or people who are actually have been in the field for more than 20 years.
So, it's something very important for like, junior designers to kind of know is that you don't know anything and that's okay because I think one of the biggest issues is that when we interview. We don't say I don't know. We usually try to make sure that we know everything and we're not as young as we speak, you know, we're not as immature or not design experienced as we seem, and just, if you go to these kinds of mentorships, you know, you learn that it's okay not to know things even senior designers don't know everything.
Thomas Morrell 23:40 No, Absolutely, and so did I see that you are now a mentor at ADP?
Mariyam Elshrief 23:47 Yes, I am. I was actually getting mentored before ADP ADP lights, which is kind of funny. But, yeah tables have turned, I guess, I took every kind of advice I got from ADP Lis and kind of enhanced my portfolio, and all the advice that I got from there was very beneficial and helped me stand on my feet. I never took feedback or something that's so negative, even though people have different ways of giving feedback some real caution and sandwich, some are just like, very hard.
I always thought about feedback is something that's going to make me better. It's something that we don't we're not privileged to always get. And if we're lucky to get that feedback, we should use it and see if it's subjective or objective and apply it. And that's how I kind of, you know, had a lot of sessions on ADP lives until I meet I got my portfolio into a matter of like, oh I don't hate it anymore. I'm okay with it, it's not the best but I'm okay with it. And I feel like that has helped me a lot in my job search.
Thomas Morrell 24:49 Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, then I need a mentor now for podcasting and YouTubing and all that stuff. So, understanding, getting a mentor is a fantastic thing to have. I've been mentoring students with springboard, which has been really good and I think, super beneficial, and I haven't tried ADP LIST yet that's I’ll have to look into. I really like that and I've seen a few people that I work with, starting to do it and I just think it's a fantastic idea. Yeah, well you are definitely making the most out of a, you know, a very short career so far, that's awesome stuff. But um, who's been your biggest inspiration through all this, or who or what has been your biggest inspiration.
Mariyam Elshrief 25:36 It's actually a good question. I think my mother coming here you know it's just like very difficult, you know, she believed in me, kind of like having all these switches and all of this indecisiveness and I feel, oh I have to have something you know I have to prove something I have to do something for myself and ask for something for her.
I guess it was the biggest inspiration, sometimes they usually tell you when you get a bully at school or a bully. When you're younger you always want to try to work harder to prove them wrong and that actually comes with great benefits because you're working so hard on yourself but you really forgot the main reason that you're working, you know, up for that, to prove someone wrong.
It's not the same kind of concept but it's definitely has helped me or inspired me in the base without, like having enough energy to just look at the screen, you got to keep looking, keep pushing and push to the max, basically. And always, as I say failing forward, I failed a lot, but I failed and I got up and learn from that failure, and it helped me a lot like I can't say like success is something that's linear. It's, it's, it's, the more I feel often, the more I feel like success is nearer.
Thomas Morrell 26:49 Um, yes. Fail early fail often fail forward is up they say something along those lines a little bit saying but um, So you obviously you well and you learn a lot on your own, which is awesome. What are you going to learn next?
Mariyam Elshrief 27:07 Oh, I'm looking into learning about accessibility and AI, so these are two things that I feel I lacked as a designer. Not every designer advocates for accessibility. That's because a lot of companies just hire external third-party agencies to deal with accessibility, but I feel it's very important for us to deal with excessive liability and advocate for it. I recently actually broke my leg recently and, I had the worst kind of, you know, the healing process, and only a person who designed a product and knee scooter, rather than clutches and kept me thinking in terms of design.
The knee scooter helped me move faster and more efficient rather than clutches, and I was like, well as someone that sat there and thought about, oh let's create a scooter that will help people who can't use their legs move more efficiently as if they had their legs, and maybe that's not the same concept as visually but if that's someone who advocated for something else, and I feel, as designers we're obligated to advocate for people who are in need of our help, you know, And so that's why I want to grow kind of my field and knowledge accessibility, there's a lot of things that I do not know, I can basically just scratch the surface, and I wish actually organization would teach in their designers also about the importance of accessibility what's coming up next, and how we can prioritize it not just because of legal issues because of morals.
Thomas Morrell 28:33 Yeah, no, that's a great answer that's I think it's an area where all of us could evolve and learn. I know myself. I'm always kind of run to Google, whenever I have a question. So, learning new things would be ideal. And so what else is on the horizon for you?
Mariyam Elshrief 28:52 Artificial intelligence, definitely. I actually since I moved to San Francisco, everything has been operated by a bay by AI, where is it cars, drones robots waders food, you name it, and I was like, wow, this is a field that is very booming right now and we know a little about it, it's going to be the next day, a couple of years, and just getting on early will help me, you know, have that competitive advantage from among other designers, because I'm always in the search for what is my competitive advantage I always ask myself that question, what value am I bringing that other designers can’t because there's definitely a lot of designers out there right now, and everyone has to have their kind of special touch and special value to be seen. Rather you know just like not knowing, it's always, they always tell you you need to know someone at some companies so they can, you can be seen, but I feel it's more like, what's your competitive advantage and value that you can add that will help you be seen.
Thomas Morrell 29:52 That's fantastic. And so where can people go to connect with you?
Mariyam Elshrief 29:59 Oh definitely, I have LinkedIn, my name, my first name, and my last name. I'm definitely approachable on LinkedIn, I actually created a UX Instagram page and that's just to share kind of learnings as a junior designer in general. Also, its UX underscore Mariyam.
Thomas Morrell 30:18 Oh, fantastic. Okay, well that's perfect, and if somebody wanted to be mentored by you on ADP list, could they go to ADP list and request you, is that possible?
Mariyam Elshrief 30:28 Yeah, absolutely. I also link the ADP list in my UX Instagram so definitely make a clickable link and just be redirected to book with me directs you there.
Thomas Morrell 30:38
Oh, that's super cool. Okay. Absolutely and I will include all of these links in the show notes and all those, and I will make sure to connect with you on Instagram myself. Thank you so much, Miriyam, for joining me and doing this and I really can't appreciate it enough, it's great to see you again, and I'm really glad to see that you've found a great position for yourself.
Mariyam ElshriefThank you I appreciate you for having me.
Thomas MorrellAnd that's the show everybody thank you so much for tuning in today. If you haven't already please subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. I will be releasing a show about every other week or so, if you'd like to be a friend to the show, leaving a review or comment on Apple would be very much appreciated, share links to the show with your friends, or anyone else who might know who is interested in UX design.
Feel free to recommend topics you'd like to hear discussed and if you have any questions about design. Design careers or anything else for that matter, you can DM me on Instagram @userflowspod. If you'd really like to help me out, you can visit, thomasmorrell.com/survey to let me know what you'd like to learn on this show or here more or less. So, thank you I appreciate you listening, and let's go create something.
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