EP17. How to best engage design recruiters so that everyone wins with Jared Tredly.
Welcome back to the UserFlows Podcast everyone, my name is Thomas Morrell and this is a show where we talk about UX design and careers.
I interview designers and creators about their journey into the field and break down how they've been successful in their roles so we all can learn together.
Today I'm joined by Jared Tredly. Now, Jared is not a designer, but he does build world-class design teams with some of the best Designers globally. Jared works with incredible companies to attract, source, and retain the best designers. From UX, UI, Product to Brand Designers, Creative Directors, and Art Directors - he's worked with every level from Grad to C-Suite.
He is currently based in Brooklyn within the Bamboo Crowd US office! In addition to his day-to-day recruiting he volunteers as the USA Community Lead for the Fearless Global Design community.
I had a great time speaking with Jared, I had been enjoying his content on LinkedIn. Both written and video where he discusses and dishes on the inner workings of being a Tech recruiter focused on designer recruitment specifically. I feel like I've learned a lot from him and thought he'd have a lot to share on the show. He did not disappoint.
We covered everything from his predictions on the future of design work in a post covid world to how a UX designer can put their best foot forward by using some best practices while engaging a technical recruiter.
Jared also talked about how companies can keep from sabotaging themselves when it comes to recruiting top design talent and a heap of other advice. It was really a pleasure to speak with him and I hope you enjoy the conversation.
Connect with Jared
jared@bamboocrowd.com // @jaredtredly // +1 646 696 4846
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Show Highlights
[1:00] About Jared and his background.
[2:30] Career coaching as a recruiter.
[4:40] How UX designers can set themselves up nicely for their next role.
[8:05] How the process of recruitment works from the recruiter’s perspective.
[11:20] What to do before you turn on the "Open to work" button on LinkedIn.
[13:20] How to best respond to recruiter outreach.
[16:50] Is it better to be specializing or becoming a generalist these days?
[18:12] What designers can do to engage a recruiter to help them land that dream role.
[22:05] What companies can do to improve the recruitment process.
[25:00] Advice for people transitioning to UX design from another career.
[28:27] Bootcamps.
[31:15] Future of UX Design & Recruitment predictions.
. . .
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Transcript
NOTE about the transcript. I try my best to provide a transcript of each show. It’s not always perfect.
Thomas Morrell 0:11 Welcome back to the User Flows podcast everyone, my name is Thomas Morrell and this is a show where we talk about UX design and careers. I interview designers and creators about their journey into the field and break down how they've been successful in their roles so we can all learn together. Today I'm joined by Jared Tredly. Now Jared is not a designer, but he does build world-class design teams, and that's why I have him here today.
Jared works with incredible companies to attract source and retain the best designers, Jared, welcome to the show really excited to have you.
Jared Tredly 0:39 Thank you. Thank you, especially, not being a designer myself.
Thomas Morrell 0:44 That's quite all right. We take all kinds here, but you are definitely involved in the design community, and I love the content that you're producing on LinkedIn. Which is mostly focused on design and design recruitment. So, if you could, could you tell us a little bit about yourself.
Jared Tredly 0:59 Yeah, definitely. Design recruiter, that really is the core of it, that's, that's what I do and not being a designer is interesting but you're right in that I really just purely focused on recruiting designers, and building design teams, so I've made a really conscious decision to go really all in on that, which allows me to get really deep in that space so yeah just working with designers and working like right up through the levels of all designers from graduates fresh, right through to Chief Design Officer as I'm working with as well.
People at the highest level of their design career too so you just see so many things throughout all those layers and levels, and sometimes see big differences, and sometimes seeing the same challenges that people have within their career and changing roles and, you know, whatever it might be, Sometimes there's a nice little moment in there where the challenge that a fresh graduate is having with finding their first job could be the same challenge that a VP of design is having with getting their next role, so that in a way, brings all designers that whole community always back together in that particular aspect, and I get that unique vantage point of the I get to sort of seeing it across all those layers because it's part of my job to speak to all those people too, so I get this nice little bird's eye view at times.
Thomas Morrell 2:16 That’s really cool. And I imagined at some point you almost end up being like a career coach, in some ways.
Jared Tredly 2:21 Yeah, that really is a big part of it for me I've been so fortunate with, you know, speaking to so many great designers, I've learned a lot about design and a lot about, I guess essentially designing your career, you know what makes a great designer. So I've learned a lot about that but really like for recruiters, I honestly sort of believing in any area first and foremost, our job is to be good recruiters, like that's our role first and that is, careers, coaching on careers helping in that regard. And now I sort of take the recruitment aspects and then I go deep on design.
So, yeah, there's a lot of coaching there and some really interesting moments for people, I will say on that front, it's not all just dotting I's and crossing T's, at times, I'm there with people when they get their dream wrong when the offer gets made and the offer is amazing and they love it, and it's like yes, this is so great I put myself out there, I went through that interview print you know I did what I needed to do, and that was understood and now they want to offer me the job like I'm so excited. And that can happen at every level first job, through to your leadership role, but I'm also there when people get let go. Sometimes or hey I've just been let go from my role, maybe the startup has run into some lows or you know whatever it might have been, and I could be the first phone call, Hey, you know just received this news like now what and it's, and so than going through that like, you're letting them know at times like hey, it's not great, like, what can we do but also saying hey, just so you know for the market. This is a good timing gear so I know you're going to be okay I'm here to help you or here are some things we can do right out because that can be a crazy time for someone as well like why I just lost my job now what, yeah right.
Thomas Morrell 4:06 That brings up a really interesting point because I had a whole other kind of lineup of questions. That was good. Already, that just because I happen to know a lot of people who are about to be out of work and their department was sold from an ex-employer of mine, so now they're going to be on the job hunt. What's the best thing somebody could do to set themselves up to quickly make the transition to a new role.
Jared Tredly 4:30 Yeah, definitely a few things I think one of the biggest things is sort of just taking a moment for yourself. I honestly do believe there is whiplash that can come with it, especially if you didn't see it coming maybe in this case there was a lot of talks, there were things leading up to knowing that maybe this was coming, but ultimately like just take a stop for a second, you know, catch your breath, get centered a little recovered just from that whiplash type take a day or two, it's okay, I think, especially in this market right now like very specifically right now it's a really busy time for hiring designers in particular.
It's the best time to be let go because things are so busy so you do have a lot of opportunities and with that in mind, I try to encourage people like, just take a minute for yourself, a day, two days, even a week, whatever it is you're not going to do yourself a disservice to get your next job by just recovering for a minute from maybe the shock of what you've been through because ultimately you'll be in a better place. As you enter your interviews to put your best foot forward and go above it's not just about finding a new job sometimes, maybe you're going to find something that's even better than what you're doing before. And the only way is forward sometimes so yeah take a stop and catch up Catch your breath recover, and then get your stuff in order as a designer, just a little update on the CV, you know is that up to date.
Can you update your LinkedIn, a little bit? The best part about LinkedIn for example if you choose to use it is, it's passively having people come to you as well. If you've got things up to date, you know the titles are correct, you've got a bit of a description about what you do, maybe some areas of specialization that you have data visualization dashboards design systems, whatever it might be, you've got those things on there. Plenty of recruiters like me out there that are searching LinkedIn, all day looking for designers, and rather than you having to go out there and find yourself a new job, you're having people come to you, contact you about a job.
So get those things up to date, get your house in order, and little with that. If you cannot date the folio, do it, it's gonna be a big asset to you as well. Again you want to reach out to accompany or contact someone, whatever it might be, they're probably going to ask to see some work, and the more you've got a handle on having some of that together especially recent work because, arguably, a lot of your recent stuff is usually your best work, or it could be something you're really proud of having that together, obviously puts you in a spot to dive straight to the next thing. So yeah, just catch your breath, and then get your house in order, and think about some of those updates because we have those two tracks going out there and contacting people, but having people reach out to you for the right and relevant things that are on that beacon.
Thomas Morrell 7:10 That's great advice. Take a moment to really reflect on what you want, I think that's fantastic. So, I think it'd be really good for people to understand what the day-to-day looks like for you. The process behind the curtain that we as designers don't see you get a new role from an organization into and try to find people What's that process look like contacting a designer, to see if they're interested, and then your initial interview, I just want to get your perspective so designers can kind of better manage that relationship, in a way and make the most of it.
Jared Tredly 7:43 Yeah. Yep, definitely and some of that to be honest with that process starts a little earlier before reaching out to that designer to contact them about a particular role, there really is a lot of upfront work with that particular company, about what it is that they're looking for in this market, in particular, it's such an amazing time, especially for myself, being more specialized in design and focusing on that. I can only work with so many companies at once.
So within that for me, I want to do what's exciting for me. What's enjoyable, so I spent a lot of time upfront with that company getting to the core of like, what do they need, what are the expectations, do they align with the market if they're paying too low and expecting too much and not being competitive with their hiring process. But how are we ever going to get there so it's like let's not even start so there is some upfront work where we do some calibration there, and we really try to get great hiring process, really think about that candidate experience, What is a designer's experience with going through that process, how do we get to the other end of it, everything like that so that stuff happens so that when I go to market and I go to that desire to talk to them about it. It's usually with good reason.
I know why I'm kind of reaching out to them what I'm reaching out to them about the biggest thing I think when you're contacted from a recruiter, you know for any type of role depends on what some of that average might be. But for me, a lot of the time, I just want to speak to people and learn from them what are their ambitions and goals, what do they want to do, I can glean a lot of things from a LinkedIn profile, depending on how much is on there about them, also from a portfolio, you know those things broadcast and tell someone like myself about you as a designer before I've spoken to, I'm doing some guesswork I'm kind of interpreting, I'm working with what I've got to see, and then I'm reaching out off the back of that so again as a designer that might actively be looking for an example on LinkedIn you've turned on, you're “open to new work” setting.
You've put the bat signal in the sky, and you said, like, reach out to me I'm looking. That's great. I'm going to contact you and say, I'd love to talk about what you're looking for and what you want to do, and that's where as a designer that's that exercise of like what is it that I want and wants to do. So having a bit of an idea of that I think is really helpful. That's one of the best initial ways to work with a recruiter, whether they're internal aides, whatever it might be. It's just saying, Look, this is where I'm at in my career, this is what I'm doing.
This is why I've turned on my open to new work for example, and this is what I really want to do in my next step, because for me at any one time I could be working on 20 to 30 different design roles, for example, especially in this market right now. But all that 90% of them could be off the mark. They might not align with what you really want to do, so I usually have a bit of an idea based on what I can see about someone, these couple of companies and roles, I think might be applicable to where they seem to have experience already. But again, it's like, what are their goals and ambitions, and if it doesn't map back to what I'm working on. We don't have to go over it. It's okay. So sometimes the conversations can be like okay, now I know what you want to do I'm not really working on anything that lines up with that, but now I know, and now I know who to call when that stuff comes up.
So just having a bit of a feel for being able to communicate that and articulate that. I even tell some designers because I know that so many are being contacted by recruiters at the minute like it is so busy, you could get 20 messages a day could be all the same thing. Honestly, if you could just have three points about what you want to do and a couple of specifics, just put them in a note and copy-paste and send it straight back. Yeah, save yourself a bit of time and then just go hey, thanks so much for the message, if this is kind of why I'm looking at what I'm open to anything along with that, let's chat. It's a tough market I'm cautious of people's time, I think a lot of people are getting a lot of messages and feeling like an inundation or saturation and it could feel like they're wasting time speaking to recruiters for no result. So, if you can help shortcut some of that, then definitely do it.
Thomas Morrell 11:51 Yeah. That brings up a really good point because when you turn on that switch on LinkedIn. It's like bam. Oh yeah, right now, I have it turned off. And I just want to get your opinion on this is, this is a good thing to do or a bad thing, is not looking for new work but I get contacted. And I'll just send them a quick note, like, you know, thank you for reaching out, appreciate it. Can we talk in the future like I'm very happy right now but no should that change can we talk, and then I just give them kind of bullet points of what I'm looking for. Yeah. Is that helpful or is that like a little arrogant, like no don't contact me unless it meets these criteria.
Jared Tredly 12:26 So it’s all a bit in your tone of voice he could be nice about it you know it's totally so no you're 100% right, we're all super busy we're all working through whatever, And I think as long as some of those bullet points that you share, for example, are pretty realistic as well. If you're one year into your design career, and you're not currently looking but you shoot back that message with a couple of points say you know thanks for the message but my next role I really want to be a VP of design, on, at least you know, 300k. Okay.
But as a recruiter for me, what I will do on my side, is I will make note of that, I have a database, I'm a big proponent of using my own database because I can't remember everything, but I'll take that information and I'll create a couple of notes, I could create some certain points around numbers if you've mentioned some salary, you mentioned may be a leveling of Title Director VP manager lead, senior you know whatever it might be, make a note of leveling and then make a note of some of the specifics that you might have mentioned to ideally team size so you know, got to have like, not not a founding design obviously on the inverse definitely up for being a founding designer loves consumer-facing work doesn't want to do internal software anymore, wants to work on, you know, data see type mobile-first, Whatever.
I will make notes of those things, and when those roles come up. I'm the one searching the database and saying, Oh, Thomas is really into that stuff. He's the kind of guy that wants to know about this. I'm going to reach out to him now and just let him know a bit more about this thing. See if he's up for a chat. It is really valuable and it's not a waste of anyone's time I don't think I'm not as well put that out there.
Thomas Morrell 14:10 Great, no, no, like that so you know kind of be as upfront as possible about what you're looking for and then should something in that realm come up, you have the information, it's in your database, and that's perfect. Can I ask what kind of software do you use to kind of track all that I mean 30 people at a time? That's a lot.
Jared Tredly 14:27 Oh yeah, it's more than that, I'm using HubSpot. At the moment, have you so many different ones over the years, and it's all about how you use it too, and how you started to buy it and break it down, and that's where design is gone, I think there are so many areas of specialization within design. Now, the majority of my conversations with companies are about like, this is what we're building and what we're doing. This is the type of designer, we want to come here just saying product designer almost doesn't explain anything.
Thomas Morrell 14:57 Yeah. Very cool. And in your opinion, is it better to be specialized highly specialized or more of a generalist, these days.
Jared Tredly 15:07 I honestly think there's merit in both, you know, and it's and. And I think that being a specialist or being a generalist is not always as an active choice for you as a designer, it can you just gravitate that way sometimes you just have a more general skill set or approach, you just like to know a little bit across all these things, or it's like, look, this is one area, and I'm so obsessed with that, I'm just going all in super deep so in the market itself there is a need for both of those things, they exist in different teams in different areas, startups in particular, lean a little more on that generalist that T shaped kind of skills, they get to a bigger team, the pods, and the groups are forming out each cross-functional pod, could have some, some real specialists, in the end, you see some amazing pieces of software or products that exist anything. Wow, there's a product for that and it does just that. So, yeah, I honestly believe there's a merit for both, and whatever suits you as a designer, you can be empowered to go out there and do that and to craft your career around what suits you.
Thomas Morrell 16:15 Nice, nice. So, is there anything that designers could do to make your life easier, and helping them land that dream role?
Jared Tredly 16:22 Yep, being able to articulate, you know, some of those wants and needs and in that role and things like that, transparencies, super helpful, and that takes time to get to. So I think for anyone that is wanting to learn that role or something like that, have a bit of openness to speak with a recruiter, but you are allowed to be selective about, if you work with a recruiter or which recruiters, you work with, because I think ultimately it is definitely a relationship that can really build over time, as well, and especially for myself.
Now having done this for just over 10 years, I've placed two people in multiple roles, you know, I've helped them go up through the levels over the years, and they've come back around, or I've helped them get their role as a design leader, And six months later I'm then working with them to build their team. So that is a real relationship so if you're up for it and you find someone that you really like, be open to building that relationship with them, because the benefits, certainly go both ways definitely helps me tenfold makes my job so much easier so much more pleasurable and enjoyable. You know it's really exciting, but as the designer, they will get the results too.
So if you get that opportunity, you know, be open to building that rapport in that relationship and that's where that trust and transparency will come from as you build that sort of stuff. One thing I would say in this market right now where that has been really helpful is, anyone that's actively looking and actively interviewing potentially getting multiple offers from companies going through these stages, company A often series Company B offers that, whatever it might be for me as a recruiter, I'm probably maybe got them one offer out of the five that they have, for example, so I'm sort of saying well what do you want to do, which do you want to take and what is most aligning for yourself, and if it is the one that we're working on together. Well now I need that to be the best competitive package for you too, you know, there's lots of things to it so the more transparency that they can give me the more I can go out and help them get what it is that they want, and ultimately they will turn around and say to me, Look, the role that you have just doesn't compete with what I want and so it's okay.
Then I want you to go and get the best thing for you. You know so yeah as you build that trust with the recruiter you can be transparent with them because where I've seen it come off is having multiple offers, telling me, these are the other offers that I have, but I really want the job that we're working on together. I like it the most. We just need the numbers to line up. I'm okay. Leave that to me. I go to that company I'm transparent with them, I've built trust with the company, and I say, Look, you really like this designer but they have these other opportunities on the table, and they come in at these numbers. What can we do, well, okay let's match that number, and let's be the most competitive because we want to hire them. Okay. And then for the designer, they're like, great, no brainer. I've got a great number for a job that I really want. Then I'm going to go take that and that just comes through that transparency and trust, and wanting that result, where it breaks down as if things that may be held to close communication isn't there, I don't have numbers to work with I don't have information to try to help get the right package for them and I'm just sort of guessing and then it sort of comes apart in sync. No one shared real info, we didn't communicate what chance do we have. Yeah, yeah, there is a power in that I think in this market in particular right now.
Thomas Morrell 19:48 So transparency and openness. And are there any things that designers that you're working with, do in the interview, applying process that just drives you absolutely crazy.
Jared Tredly 20:01 For the most part, I think we're so fortunate in the design community, that there are so many great people. I think within design I was thinking about this morning and a big part of being a designer is being empathetic and understanding your user and tapping into these things. And when that is part of your job, I think, generally, as stable designers have those abilities and they bring that into that kind of interview process to the only thing that can be frustrating probably comes back to that last point of why, if the designer has maybe told me certain information about arm kind of aiming for these numbers, you know, I live in this city, but I'm totally open to relocating, you know whatever they've given me the information I share that with the company and then they go into the interview, and then they change what they've told them many and say, Oh, I'm absolutely not relocating, I want $100,000 more than what I told me. Okay. What we're going to be able to do here, that drives me crazy. I'll get triggered from that.
Thomas Morrell 21:01
I can imagine that would throw you off and on the flip side of that you had mentioned about companies, is there anything that companies do during this process that kind of kills the deal.
Jared Tredly 21:12 They can it's, it's always a learning curve. I always kind of come back to the whole thing around like we create this hiring process we try to create a standardized process to ultimately hire individuals who have individual needs and by definition, it's never going to truly work all the time. So, look, I think there's a lot of companies out there learning at the moment, and I guess that's a two way street on like that information like negotiating too early on or design tasks, in particular, you could do a whole podcast series on those I think I will. Yeah. Good, good. Please count me in. So I think all companies are kind of learning some of that stuff but again just humanize the process I think is the biggest thing that if everyone does that both sides, especially companies trained designers like people like humans, it's not just trying to get employee number 274 on the books like doesn't work that way. So, any opportunity to humanize the process that's what I want companies to always just think back and lean on.
Thomas Morrell 22:18 I love that. Any advice for somebody out there, you know, considering the switch from another career to UX design anything, in particular, that would get the kind of set up for success and landing that first roll.
Jared Tredly 22:31 Yeah, that's a really challenging one for sure, I think, but so many had done it. So there are tons of use cases out there that and it's so doable, many times over. So I think my pieces of advice there like always lean on the previous experience that you've had, you're switching careers from something else, and then you want to get into UX design where you have some sort of knowledge or skills or something, that is going to be applicable to design, in some way, and it may not be, you know I used to do marketing now I did design it's, you know they can kind of sit, parallel sometimes but it may be, you know that you have subject matter expertise in an area, and now you're getting into design.
Well, is there a company out there that plays in that subject matter area? That happens to need a designer, in which case, you could be a top pick because he knows so much about that industry or that field, whatever it might be. So I think for that career shift you lean into the previous career as well find the parallels find ways to talk about these things you've learned and use that as an advantage because most of those career-changing designers, their entrance is usually through like a boot camp, or something like that, and going in and doing a course and you got to think you're probably graduating with a cohort of maybe 30 other graduate designers, as well. Of those, some could be career changers some could be very early into any kind of career, and don't have other work experience elsewhere.
So, within that you're going to sort of look across the cohort and seeing what might be my advantage over some of these other designers, you know, if all three of us applied to a particular job which one of us is going to get it so there are certain things that you'll have advantages that you have, how do you lean into those and how do you then use that to then reverse engineer then I look at the companies that are going to find your experience more applicable than maybe some others in your cohort that doesn't have some of that previous career experience.
So definitely look at that. The other challenge, I will say is really around the dollars you've come from a successful career in x area, making a salary that a person with 10 years experience in that role has gone, and now you want to shift into another career where you are essentially entry-level, and you're maybe expecting the same kind of sideways move that can be really hard to do. So have a think about that, what does that mean to you do you take a step down to then create a higher ceiling than what you previously had it's just going to take a little bit longer. It's just going to take you a minute to catch back up or because it can be challenging or off-putting if the entry-level designer kind of rate is here, you know whatever numbers, it might be, and you're expected to come in 50 60 70 $100,000 above that, it makes it hard for that company to kind of see that value just yet. So have a think about those things and what that might mean to you.
Thomas Morrell 25:24 And so when it comes to boot camps, what's your opinion on boot camps for companies looking at new designers coming in and for designers considering a switch to UX design. Are boot camps worth it. Are they making the grade, getting people the right skills to get placed?
Jared Tredly 25:40 I mean there's so many out there now too, right, like it's hard to, break them all down and say this one's better than that one, I think that's kind of challenging. I do think they're a really great entry point for a lot of things you could learn, you know, at the very least a lot of terminology UX is probably the biggest boot camp kind of area that I tend to see a lot of UX terminology, a lot of foundational skills.
I think they're good at setting things like that up, but it still really comes down to your own self-directed work as well. You've got to personally as the individual as the aspiring designer put in the time and energy and the effort to apply some of the stuff that you're learning, and go out there and maybe try to do more work, try to try to get a freelance client or something to apply these things are learning, and build up some of that knowledge and build up the practical side, and that obviously can then be put on the portfolio, hopefully, and showing some of that, I think, typically, in my experience, I haven't seen really any companies, specifically say okay we're hiring a graduate designer I want them to come from this specific boot camp, and not really ever seen that I don't know if they're waving in that way.
So it really still comes down to you as the aspiring designer to put in that effort to elevate yourself take what you've learned, take those skills as terminology, the process of thinking, take that and sort of push yourself to get out there and get that practical experience in, because that's what companies really sort of looking for so I think that's my advice for them I know they're a waste of time just teach yourself. If you think he can go for it. Why not, if you think that boot camp is gonna help accelerate some of that and just get you heading down the right track, then go for that too. I think it comes down to your learning style and your ability to kind of self-motivate self-direct, you know, go and push yourself to kind of get it.
Thomas Morrell 27:34 Yeah, that's great advice and I think you're choosing a boot camp whether or not you're self-directed, you can choose one that's fully online, or if you need a little bit more than face to face you could choose one with a mentor or an in-person kind of thing. So, yeah, great advice. Any thoughts, since you kind of, have your finger on the pulse of a lot of these organizations that are out there hiring right now. Any thoughts on the future of design, you know, remote birth.
Jared Tredly 27:58 Yeah, like the design market is busier than it's ever been and I don't think it's slowing down anytime soon, from what I'm seeing some of the little telltale signs with some of that's really exciting is, you know Previously you would see these classic ratios of 15 engineers 30 engineers to one designer, or something like that you know and that's typically saying and depends on the company but saying that engineering comes first and we'll work on that first and then we just kind of slap some design on top or something like that.
I think that has really shifted, you've seen a massive shift in that ratio split, and it's more like, you know, it could be fought for engineers for everyone designer, or something like that or even less so we're seeing companies want to change that ratio and hire more designers. We've definitely seen a lot of startups that are hiring designers earlier on, it's a much earlier hire. So they obviously already know, we need design we know the power of design, and that's a big thing that I've been saying that that founding designer role exists it's a tough one, but there's a lot of companies that need it. And in the past it was like, I don't want to do that because I have to go and teach that company what UX even means.
Then I get to do the work, it's like they already know. They already know how great design is and they know the power of it. Now they just need you to come and do it. So we've seen so many more companies harnessing design at like the highest leadership levels, all that's happening so tons of hiring there. I don't think that's slowing down anytime soon. I'm loving more of the remote first approach, I'm seeing more companies do it. I'm seeing more startups, probably adapt to it, a little more. And I think it's a lot of those startups that are doing that are going to use that as their competitive advantage in the future, they will be more remote-first more remote-friendly, they will be able to hire, nationally, globally, maybe even.
Hopefully, that one's a tough one, but they're not restricted so much on geography, So they're looking at far bigger talent pools and creating these great diverse teams of people and not just purely having to be in a specific location so I'm seeing them have an advantage with that. The other thing that comes with some of that remote side of things is the pay localization, we're seeing a lot of companies, especially the bigger ones are pushing this pay localization as well, which is a whole interesting topic in itself, where some of the startups I think are being a little bit competitive is not having as much disparity in that localization, some of them seem to be doing elements of localization but I'm working with some other companies.
You know we've talked about what we just said, why localize great designers a great designer we're a relatively small scaling company. I think just because this person is living in this particular Midwest Region versus New York or San Francisco, then you know you're going to pay them much less than if they happen to live. I don't know if it needs to be a thing and, ultimately, it's how they've again a competitive advantage and they've secured some incredible talent, versus the other competing company that told that designer you have to move to San Francisco and want to move. So, I'm seeing lots of these little competitive things come out, which raises new questions.
I personally hope that things stay more remote. First, I think on the hiring side, it gives me so much more bandwidth to look for people, it just removes this whole thing out of the conversation around this location side of things, and I think within that there are many many many designers in particular that like remote first and an open to that, but they're also open to a real level of travel around. Okay, let's get together and collaborate, do a workshop, once a month I'll fly into whichever location or something like that. So, with some of that in mind, it's like can you still be a really effective company can you build a great product and build a great culture, by being remote-first and in time. Allow yourself to scale competitively. So those are my kind of questions back to companies. So, we do hope that they stay on that path. I don't know what your thoughts are your thoughts on that as the designer. Do you have a personal opinion on remote first?
Thomas Morrell 32:16 Yes, I have a very personal opinion about this one, I just relocated my family down to Savannah, Georgia, from the New York City area. And luckily, everything with my company stayed the same, they're super cool about it. They do have office spaces in New York and Raleigh, I will be traveling occasionally, and I think for me that's kind of the perfect setup to working from home because I do have two young kids, so getting to be with them and get them to school those things, but then maybe once a quarter, or twice occasionally travel to the office and do something important, so you're not just there to be there.
Get everybody in a room and figure out something big, maybe do a design sprint or something like that, that's the perfect setup for me. Thinking back to a couple of different companies I worked for, you know, spending hours getting into New York. You know, train broke down, takes hours and you finally get to your desk, and then you're on the phone with somebody in another country, like all day. What's the point of that.
That's super cool and a salary thing will be really interesting to see how that plays out but if you're a startup, and you're not spending that money on huge office space in a big downtown that does kind of give you that competitive advantage where you can put some of that money that you would have spent towards, you know, hiring better talent.
Jared Tredly 33:33 Yeah, I see that localization I see some things behind that, but when I looked at the disparity of market ranges across, you know, San Francisco, in particular, such a bubble in terms of how people are paid there it's the same. It's not always about like oh we have to be for equal gravity payments or you know where we have to be equal across the entire company. It could just be just getting closer to the middle, just get closer to the middle, you've got an ability to do some of that, and it could give you a real competitive advantage. I also, think it's worth it. I think there are incredible people out there that you can really harness these great designers, just by opening up some of that restrictiveness to allow you to really scale.
Thomas Morrell 34:17 Right on. Do you see any designers making the sacrifice and you're like, I'm willing to take like a 20% pay cut, in order to live where I want? Does that happen nowadays?
Jared Tredly 34:27 Yeah, I think so. For sure, for sure. and it can be so individual depends where they're coming from where they live, it could be a totally different story if they're in San Francisco and a top tier salary and then they want to move out, you know, maybe take a little bit of a cut, but even that little bit of a cut doesn't necessarily equate to their local place that they're moving to Minneapolis or something like that could be a totally smaller design market in particular but yeah I do think that a lot of people are really valuing this freedom and flexibility that they have around the work, finding a workplace that is full trust, finding a team that they can trust and collaborate with, and that is worth something, aside from just pure dollars, you know, and maybe you've experienced this in your career as well.
Going through the years that it's not always about the paycheck at a certain point, I think from parts of your career that really drives some of it is these kind of pretty fair market ranges that exist. And I think as long as you're within the range and you're necessarily being underpaid for the market. If you can get in the range but other things suit like remote flexibility. You love the culture, you know, they really care about like, those things have so much weight and importance that can get a certain point in your career, and I love to meet designers that at that point, as well, and know what's important to them and know what they really value.
And it's not just purely salary driven, I think that's a really great place to get to, personally, professionally, I think it's hard, it's, it's not for everyone, but it does exist, and it can allow you again the same as what we're saying about companies having this openness to how they scale and hire people, as an individual having an openness to what could be a great package for you, it's not just about pay salaries sometimes a package exists, and it's made up of so many things and many of those things can be very individual, to each person. So yeah, that's always a fun thing to work on as well. Well I love to see people just find roles that they're so happy with, and ultimately just paid accordingly and it doesn't have to be the highest dollar in the world.
Thomas Morrell 36:29 Love that, love it. This is all great advice. I really appreciate this. What's next on the horizon for you and Bamboo Crowd?
Jared Tredly 36:36 We've been having, our biggest year ever. I personally have had the biggest quarter I've ever had. In particular, we tend to kind of quantify things in quarters, and this is the live stuff. So, we are so busy with work, we need to scale, we definitely need to hire, so it's always funny when a recruiter has to hire another record or it's like spend all day building other teams when it comes to building my own team I struggled so yeah we have so much room for growth and so much capacity to take people on to it for us to grow as a, as a team, but for us as well.
It's really important to find the right people to do that with as well, we're really passionate about what we do. We love this we have a great tight knit team. We are remote first as well, which I love. So, yeah, we have capacity to scale, that's going to be a really big focus for us, but just not doing it at the cost of the wrong people, as well, you know, it's important to us to find the right people to where the culture and values align, we did just hire a full time content producer Michelle's in our team now as well so that's great because obviously I love content, and I'm always going to do it for myself but I want to do more for Bamboo and want to push the quality of things and give back to our communities, whether it's design or innovation or strategy these areas that Bamboo crowd works in, there's a huge push for us to really give back to our communities through advice, everything like that.
And I think that will be a big part on the horizon two is storytelling for the companies that we work with, because talent attraction is hard. We know how much demand there is and how little supply there can be as well. And I think the biggest difference is storytelling around that so for us a bamboo crowd like that is super important to us to the point where we've invested in this person we're investing in setting up that function and creating that ability within our brand to tell the stories of the companies that we work with, because that's how we're going to help them scale as well, more people that understand what they do and why they might want to work there, it just changes the game because most the time procedure to know these companies can be a black box from the outside, you speak to someone and I go, Oh, this place is awesome. Now does anyone else know. Yeah, big things on the horizon around that.
Thomas Morrell 38:50 Oh, that's fantastic, fantastic then if somebody wanted to get in touch with you to maybe, you know, work with Bamboo Crowd, or to land a design role. What's the best way to get in touch with you?
Jared Tredly 39:00 Email is always good. jared@bamboocrowd.com. LinkedIn, I live on there as well. I'm on it all the time, you can always ping me a message on LinkedIn. I treat those messages the same as same as the inbox as well. Yeah, that's pretty much the easiest way to get in touch. Tell me a bit about yourself anything, You know I'm always up for that.
Thomas Morrell 39:20 Fantastic. And for those listening, definitely check out Jared on LinkedIn because his content is fantastic information for those in the recruitment stage so love it. Jared, I can't thank you enough for joining me today.
Jared Tredly 39:33 I really appreciate you having me. I love this I love this stuff. My pleasure.
Thomas Morrell 39:37 And that's the show everybody thank you so much for tuning in today. If you haven't already please subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. I will be releasing a show about every other week or so, if you'd like to be a friend to the show, leaving a review or comment on Apple would be very much appreciated. Share a link to the show with your friends, or anyone else you might know who is interested in UX design. Feel free to recommend topics you'd like to hear discussed and if you have any questions about design. Design careers or anything else for that matter, you can DM me on Instagram at user flows. If you'd really like to help me out, you can visit, thomasmorrell.com/survey to let me know what you'd like to learn on the show or you're more or less. Thank you I appreciate you listening, and let's go create something.
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