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Welcome back to the UserFlows Podcast, my name is Thomas Morrell and this is a show where we talk about UX design and careers. I interview designers about their journey into the field and break down how they've been successful in their roles so we all can all learn together. Today I'm joined by Ellie Millen. Ellie is a UX Design & Research Leader, empathy advocate in products, mentorship, and life!

I first met Ellie on a job interview. The role didn't end up being a good fit, but I really enjoyed my conversation with Ellie then and had been looking to reconnect. That is the power of LinkedIn and being open to connecting with new people. Never forget someone you met in the field, as one day you could very well connect and collaborate in the future.

I was so happy to invite Ellie onto the show. She shares what she's currently up to which is actually taking a well-needed and well-deserved career break all the way up in her hometown of Anchorage, Alaska. I love this. So many of us, myself included never really take a break to think through or discover what it truly is we want to do next. We just march along from one engagement to another with the sole goal of being employed as the driving force behind our actions. So I applaud her for taking the time to reflect, regroup and come back recharged hopefully aimed at the target of her choosing.

Watch the full interview on YouTube and don’t forget to subscribe to the User Flows YouTube Channel

Since I knew Ellie was heavily involved in UX interviewing in her previous roles I ask her to discuss any specific interview pitfalls she sees designers make and she gets into how many junior UX designers try to over please by pretending to be the designer they think the interviewer is looking for instead of themselves. She gives some advice on not being afraid to specialize. (Listen at 5:30 for more).

She also discusses positive interview skills she's seen like tying past experiences to the current role to leverage related experience to the job you're looking for (Listen at 7:30 for more).

We get into some basics of UX Research and a “for instance” on what type of research practices to use as a new designer on a team taking over a fresh project. (Listen at 9:12 for that). I really like what she had to say about cultivating a sense of why and I used that for the title of this show. She has some top-notch advice for junior UX designers at 17:21 and 31:30

Ellie dives into advice for new managers along with another “for instance” of taking over a team as a new manager at 22:20. I love her advice of listening before you do anything else and approaching management the same way you would approach any UX project.

I hope you enjoy the show.

Links: 

Ellie on LinkedIn

Ellie’s Website

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TM

Transcript

This transcript is created using Otter.ai my apologies if it’s not 100% accurate.

Thomas Morrell  0:14  

Welcome back to the User Flows podcasts everyone. My name is Thomas Morrell and this is a show where we talk about UX design and careers. I interview designers about their journey into the field and break down how they've been successful in their role so we can all learn together. Today I'm joined by Ellie Millen, Ellie is a UX design and research leader, empathy, advocate, and products mentorship in life. I like that tagline a lot. And I think I first met Ellie on a job interview. And even though that didn't end up working out, it was a really fun conversation. And I invited Ellie on today. And I am very excited to welcome her onto the show. Hi, Ellie. Hi, thank you so much from and could you tell us a little bit about yourself, you know, more than we could get from your LinkedIn profile?

Ellie Millen  0:57  

Yeah, absolutely. I was born and raised in Alaska, went to school down in Oregon for studio art. But even when I was in that mode, I knew that I wanted to get into digital. I've been interested in graphic design for a really long time. And so I kind of twisted my school's arm to let me they didn't offer anything additional. It technically was like everyone else around me was getting like painting, like oil painting and portraiture and sculpture degrees. And I was like, digital art. I'm like a crazy person. But it worked out. Got my first job in graphic design back here in Alaska, I wound up moving a couple of times in different places across the country. And as I got more into kind of marketing and art direction, figured out that that as much as I loved doing the visuals, there was an age that wasn't being scratched in terms of like problem-solving. I also was starting to encounter, I think, a frustration that a lot of designers hold near and dear to their hearts, which is when clients come back and say things like, I don't like that shade of blue. And you don't have anything to necessarily back it up to other than your expertise, right? Like you're like no, like, you're like we did a competitive analysis, we looked at your competitors and what they're doing, and this will help you stand out. And there are all these reasons that we did these things. And they go, Well, I see colors. So I just, I don't like that. And you're like, well, you're not, you're not your user. That's what led me into user research and user experience design as a practice wanting to have something more than my own expertise. Or my own perspective, because you get into a room and it becomes a battle of the perspectives and like that's not actually helping anyone accomplish what we're all here to do, which is to build things that work or build things that resonate. I'll tell stories. That's how I got new x.

Thomas Morrell  2:43  

Nice. I love that. And I guess are there aren’t a lot of jobs up in Anchorage, you know, before the whole remote.

Ellie Millen  2:51  

You know, crazy started mostly in marketing. So when it by the time I was doing UX, I was living in Chicago, and that made it a lot easier.

Thomas Morrell  2:56  

Okay, perfect. Yeah. Fantastic. And so what are you working on these days?

Ellie Millen  3:01  

So right now I'm technically working on myself. I am. Yeah, I am. by choice kind of in between roles, I've been prepping to take a little bit of a career break for quite some time. I've been working for some form of income since I was 14. So it was so it was time to just take, you know, just a couple months, little sabbatical. And I am I'm in discussion with a few folks for what's next. But But so far, just kind of trying to take a step back and and, and and really make sure that I know what I want. Like I think I think that's a really important thing for folks. And it's really hard to do sometimes.

Thomas Morrell  3:39  

Yeah, absolutely. It's I think something we all don't think about often enough, I would love to take a few months.

Ellie Millen  3:50  

That's the response I've gotten from everyone. So to anyone that say do it. It is your brain is always passively working on stuff, like having this base to just kind of let it set your own priorities and interrogate sort of how you show up to your career and to yourself and to your profession.

Thomas Morrell  4:09  

Oh, that's great. Any deeper, great insights?

Ellie Millen  4:15  

Oh, boundaries. I think I think we all struggle with boundaries as designers, right. I think a lot of us get into this in part because we are people pleasers, because we do want to want to do good. And we want people to tell us that we did good. Yeah. And finding that finding that place in yourself that security. pursue that find that keep digging for that because it's there. We all have it, I believe.

Thomas Morrell  4:41  

Oh, that's great. That's fantastic.

Ellie Millen   

I feel like at least in my perspective, like you're just kind of going from one roll to the next without taking any real time to reflect on. You know, what you're really good at and what you really want to be doing like what's really gonna kind of scratch the Have it sure help you grow help you to go on to the next level. So that that's really neat.

Thomas Morrell  5:07  

Congratulations. Thanks. And don't rush back. don't respect. That'll be there for you. That's the, that's the rest. Great. That takes around smell. Yep. And so I guess as you get back into it, I know, you'll be going through the whole interviewing process. Now, and in your past roles, as you did with me, I'm sure you've interviewed, you know, a lot of designers. Are there any, I guess big pitfalls you see people make that they should avoid

Ellie Millen  5:37  

that? Yeah, especially with younger designers, I think everyone tries to represent themselves as who they think, like the designer that they think everyone's looking for. And that almost invariably translates to I'm a unicorn, I can do it all. I can do it all. I can do it all. And it's like, for one early in your career, you don't have the foundation to to do it all like that. And honestly, no one does. It's okay. Be Be honest with yourself, be honest with who you're talking to about your strengths, about your passions, about your interests. Very few recruiters are actually looking for unicorns, they're looking for someone to fill a specific role to be part of a team to be part of a collaborative and integrated group where you aren't going to own the whole thing end to end, it's incredibly rare that any company is set up so that you can own something end to end. Even as you move up in management right at the point that you're owning something end to end, you aren't the one actually doing the day to day work. you're managing a bunch of people who are your interaction designer, and your UI designer and your UX researcher and your content strategists and your and your, your group who specialize in something. So don't be afraid to specialize like and don't be afraid to be honest about that specialty and about your strengths. No one wants to hear I'm good at everything. Because Because we all of us know in our hearts and our little deepest bits of ourselves that that's not true. It's just not it's not true for me. I've worked really hard to be strong in research and UX. Because I have a graphic design background, I have some visual strengths. But I know that I am best when I'm paired with a UI designer who is just like lightyears better than I could ever be. Right? Because like that's not that that type of visual ingenuity is just not my strength. I'm good at systems. I'm good at information architecture. I'm good at talking to people.

Thomas Morrell  7:24  

Yeah, I get that. No. And it takes a lot of, I guess, emotional intelligence to know what you're good at what you're not good at and to know when to let other people take the reins and those things that that's fantastic. And so what are some of the things you see designers do that stand out in your mind? So the great things people do in interviews that kind of, you know, blow you away and say, Oh, yeah, I want to hire this person.

Ellie Millen  7:46  

Yeah. When someone is able to connect what they've done in the past, to the role really effectively, that doesn't mean Oh, I've done exactly what you want before. So an example that I'll give is at one point, I was interviewing someone for a UX content role. And it was in financial services, and they had previous experience in crypto. I know nothing about crypto. I mean, I don't like that much, teensy amounts about crypto know what it is I know the basic principles of blockchain. But what the story that they were able to tell me, which was totally true. And then I say story, and we have a there's kind of a bad connotation around that there doesn't have to be but but the the connective tissue that they were able to present was that they had experience taking complex ideas, and simplifying them for a consumer based audience. And that's vital in financial services. Content Strategy. Yeah, absolutely. So being able to look one layer down, what not just what experiences have I had, we're not trying to one to one, no one's trying to one to one, your experience to the role. What your interviewer wants to see is that you understand the connection of what you bring. And the what that experience has taught you that you're bringing forward.

Thomas Morrell  9:02  

Oh, perfect. I like that. And so I know, you focus a lot on the research side, which is fantastic. And I mentor students and the research aspect, I feel like is a bit of a black box for them in some ways. Can you explain, you know, what UX research is? And, you know, what are some of the basic tools activities somebody should think about when starting a project?

Ellie Millen  9:28  

Yeah, so UX research to me in a nutshell is the the organized gathering of feedback. And, and using sort of tips and tricks and all of these kinds of little different things to try and strip away the things that influence that feedback in a way that twists you off of what's actually happening. Right. Um, so it's it's advanced feedback gathering. Within that the easiest way to get our feet packets just to ask is, is ask people around you and and cultivate cultivate a sense of why keep asking why I think that's the easiest thing that anyone can do. Anytime it doesn't take any money, it doesn't take anything extra. Understand the audience understand the people who you're asking, Why Why have you given me that feedback? Why is that like, tell me more, tell me more to do phrases why and tell me more. Everyone everyone is a is a user in some way, whether it's you're giving a presentation to someone, the people who are observing your presentation or your users, it's part of your job to communicate clearly with them and get your point across. And and gather their feedback and take that forward and move forward and in what you're doing next. So I think I think for anyone, that's just always why, tell me more. Those are the easiest things to grab on to. From a from a like activities perspective, once you start having, say a little bit of budget, a little bit of something to play with. Probably the easiest things to set up our, our feedback sessions during which you can use a couple of different techniques. Again, there are a lot of these things are kind of covered in listicles. The things that I have found that are kind of the underlying principles that have helped me the most are things like, don't, don't tell someone what you don't tell someone what you want them to tell you. Okay, that's a pitfall that I see a lot of people fall into is like, Okay, so we're here today to find out whether or not you like this, you're like, No, no, you've just you've you've just biased a session, you aren't actually going to get good feedback. And most people want to want to tell you that you did good. Even if you didn't, and so that if you didn't do actually are going to learn more like there, there have been times where I've had to pull designers back and say, Hey, we should put something out into the field that is actually more extreme than where we think we want to land because we're going to get more feedback. That way, we're going to get clearer feedback on on this if we go really boldly in this direction, as opposed to as opposed to trying to put the moderate thing out there. We're especially for AV testing. Sorry. Happens all the time. Yeah, I'm sure. So don't be retail, don't be afraid for the negative feedback. But also don't bias people upfront, let them just here's, here's what we're talking about today. It is, for example, a single page example, tell me what you see. Tell me and just and just let people tell you that and then you can go into the like, Okay, well, this is the thing that we're actually trying to do, like, what do you think about the love of that? Great, but once you've told them, the things that you have, that you hold in your heart, you can never get back there unfiltered, sort of raw, as if they just came to it for the first time without you there, which is how most people are going to counter your product in the wild. But once once you bias them, there's no going back.

Thomas Morrell  12:58  

Like that. I really like the the idea of going bolder than you think you need to because I feel like as designers, especially when designing for corporate kind of interests, like, especially financial services as I work to, I feel like we kind of restrain ourselves thinking that we're going to get that negative feedback from people when sometimes that's exactly what they need that kind of new innovative design or idea. I also really like that, you know, creating a sense of why I think people are cultivating a sense of why I really like that. Okay, fantastic advice. So, can we do it? Like, for instance, like, Alright, so you know, you're a new brand new designer on a product team. And you've been kind of tasked with taking a new idea to market. And so maybe it's your first project you're running on your own? What type of process would you recommend? Like what type of research to get things started on that project?

Ellie Millen  13:57  

Yeah. First is internal, interrogate the problem, make sure that the idea has been vetted. I think there are a lot of people, or a lot of instances, especially if it's a growing team, maybe this is the first time that they've had someone who had is truly bringing it as user centered discipline. I think there you encounter a lot of situations where someone will be like, Oh, well, they're not using our product, let's add features. And if someone hasn't taken a step back to say, they're not using our product, why? Why Why is important? It's because they can't find it. Okay, well, then adding features isn't gonna do anything for us. Yeah. And in fact, we need to first check out the problem space. It's entirely possible that you're coming that I've walked into situations before we're completely separate research team has done a phenomenal job nailing down the problem space, awesome, then just just keep pushing. But make sure that that works been done first. Otherwise, you're going to go off and spend a whole ton of time money, resources, everything on on something that isn't actually going to add up helping anyone. Once you're sure of the problem space, that's when you start doing co creation. From my perspective cocreation, the earlier that you can bring in your development team, the better the earlier that you can bring in stakeholders, the better, even if it's just to update them on the process, there's always a fine line with who gets to have sort of input versus decision making power, that collaborative space is always a little challenging to navigate. But don't be afraid of it. I think a lot of people are really afraid of like, oh, as soon as I start showing this to people, everyone's going to shred it and tear it apart. And that's that's part of where that I think that internal confidence comes from of like, knowing like, you can stand by your work and what you've done while also getting input from from people who have a different perspective than you like, if I don't know the history of the decision making to get to this idea, the chances that I'm on the same page of everyone go way, way down. Yeah, so like those those check ins, those co collaboration, those co creation moments are, are really important. And I think a lot of people are afraid to have them and skip over them, especially in a new environment, they don't look stupid. And my favorite thing is coming into a room and looking stupid, just do it, it's you, you will get so much more out of it, you get so much power from a locking in and being able to say, Hey, I'm new here, and I don't know anything. Can you help me? Can you help me understand how this decision was reached, I really want to make sure that we're working from the same place of understanding, like people love talking about the past, people love gossiping, people love sharing those things. So that's it, you will gain so much more and do so much better work with that knowledge. Once you're there, it kind of depends on the product, how you want to go about conducting the research and doing the iterative process and Double Diamond I think we all know and love and appreciate. There are a lot of great resources and articles on on different methodologies to use the different phases of the Double Diamond. But but don't don't let people take the iteration away from you as much as you can. I think that's one of the biggest things that we can evangelize in our profession is is the first version is not the final version, it's it should never be the final version, we always should be pushing for that little bit of extra feedback, that little bit of iteration. That doesn't mean that we can't build or stay focused on MVP, all of these kinds of things. But But draft is not final effort.

ThomaS Morrell  17:24  

Especially in software. But I really liked that. And I think that's the problem for a lot of junior designers is saying like, Hey, I don't know, and asking the questions.

Ellie Millen  17:38  

Yeah, nobody knows. This is this is the head. Nobody really knows Junior designers. Nobody knows. It's okay. Robin, all of us are doing whatever we're doing for the first time, right? Like, you may have some experience prior like this, you know, we're talking about in interviews, connecting your previous experience to how it's going to influence and help you be successful in this next thing. But no one wants to do the same thing for five years. So guess what? You probably have done this before your manager managed at some point for the first time I managed for the first time. Like, I don't know, six months before the pandemic started. Oh, well. Oh, wow. Managing through and transition to fully remote and all of those things. It was all the first time we were all doing it. Yeah, it's okay. Everyone's doing their best. Just, we can all be honest. I think we can all just be honest about it. It's okay.

Thomas Morrell  18:30  

Yeah. Well, that's a good lead into that. Could you walk us through that experience of starting to manage? And then you know, the world shutting down?

Ellie Millen  18:42  

Yeah, absolutely. So the biggest thing that I struggled with, I think a lot of designers struggle with as they transition into management is, is delegation is letting go. Yeah. And, and the I am, I'm so so lucky that I had this model for me from a couple of different mentors over the past couple of years. But but a key a really key important thing. And this, I felt like this really came to fruition for me during the pandemic. Is, is helping people understand what you see, that isn't working, and not giving the solution. Right. Not giving the solution as someone who has more experience and someone who is like, oh, if you just if I just did it, it'd be done in 20 minutes. Yeah, you're taking learning opportunities away from your people. When you do that. You You have to say, Hey, this is what I see these, you know, this hierarchy really isn't communicating. Like our goal is this and you're falling short here. And that's okay. Take it back, push on these things. Here's some levers you might be able to pull. Here's maybe an example. But I'm not going to be prescriptive with you on what the solution is because someone else come up with a better idea than me, that's fine. We all I think have had the experience of having a manager come in and say do it this way, and then you're in it and you're doing the work. And that solution is no longer viable. Because you've pushed somewhere beyond what they can see in that moment. That's okay. Like that. I think as leaders, we have to be comfortable with those moments of, I'm not the one in the weeds anymore. Yeah. So I have to trust my people that they tried something and that there's coaching and there's good faith. And there's, you know, some things go into this, but you have to have some trust that people will rise to the occasion.

Thomas Morrell  20:37  

Absolutely. And I feel like that's probably one of my biggest struggles, when I first went to management from design was just like, oh, like, I don't actually get to do the work anymore. And I have to rely on somebody else to do it.

Ellie Millen  20:50  

It's a very different job. Yeah. But going from in person to remote, honestly, in some ways was great, because now all of a sudden, it's really easy for us to, to just kind of pop it we're working in figma, which I think not to not to pro anything, I'm happy to bleep to promote any particular programs.

Thomas Morrell  21:12  

Totally, totally fine, hoping there'll be a sponsor one day,

Ellie Millen  21:15  

so yeah, there you go. We, we found the remote collaboration with with figma, to be absolutely critical to what we were doing, we were able to develop little mini systems that worked for everyone. And and it meant a lot more meeting time, right? Like you can't have sort of those serendipitous, like, Hey, can I grab you for a second and pull you in, and we'll whiteboard something and bla bla bla, you have to be a lot more deliberate about your communication. For me that looked like a standing one on ones with every single member of my team every week. every single week, it meant to stand ups a week, it meant an organized critique space where we shared our work to make sure that that things were all flowing across and we still felt really siloed like, yeah, a lot of a lot of communication. But that's it. That's the only way to get it done.

Ellie Millen  22:05  

Ya know, and I feel like that communication and that kind of silo, even when you're in person kind of can happen as well. Yeah, absolutely. Again, yeah. Cuz you're working on different projects, you have different things going on. So making the time to have that connection. That's great. So that being said, another For instance, if you don't mind, yeah, of course, you know, somebody is a you're a designer, he been working a number of years. And you know, you're getting your first crack at management. You might be inheriting, you know, a team of creatives. Any, I guess, advice for a new manager kind of stepping up to that role, what the? What can they do to you know, ensure success and all that fun stuff?

Ellie Millen  22:50  

Listen, listen, before you do anything else, listen for like, two or three weeks. Talk to people one on one and talk to people in groups understand the lay of the land. Like, again, people want to share their experiences, right, like approach management, like you approach anything else, and UX, empathy, understanding the people around you understanding what they need, understanding where things maybe have fallen short in the past. And and that doesn't mean again, just like with users, because a user goes I want to search bar at the top doesn't mean you do it. Yeah, that means you dig into it and go, Okay, what are we not providing right now that this person thinks this is the solution for? You can you can do that with the people around you, too, with what whatever you're hearing, it doesn't mean that you have to like, I, I'm always working through my lunches, and no one respects my time and all of these things. Well, those things might be true. Is there an underlying cause? That's okay. We haven't talked about time zones. No one's talking about time zones. And so we have to talk about time zones and respecting those things. And then I have to make sure that that boundaries enforce that that person is backed up when they say like, Hey, you know what, I can't do that. Because that's 8pm. And I have a kid. Like, like, what, what are the things that that are underlying Listen, listen, listen, listen, and and then be willing to iterate on the systems. No one's right the first time again, in every single meeting that I set up with the team that I didn't merit I had in the permanent, sort of like meeting, invite, like, meetings are here to serve us. We are not here to be slaves to the meetings. So if this isn't working, please bring it to talk to me about it. Bring it out. This is the goal. If we're not achieving that goal, we need to iterate on the timing the process, what we're covering who we're covering it with all of those things. That's okay.

Thomas Morrell  24:51  

Great, great advice. I really like that. So I know that you're out in Anchorage now which is good. dream come true. I would love to get out there one day. It's wonderful for the summer. It's a little dark in the winter. But yes, I can tell like it's getting dark here now but by you it's it stays light out until like midnight.

Ellie Millen  25:13  

Yeah, it's it's this time of year, we're light until like, 9pm. I think 930. Okay. Yeah. Very nice. It's so it's getting to be a little bit more standard. But, um, yeah, for for that kind of like middle of June part. It's like, oh, like, like 2am to 4am is dark. And you're like,

Thomas Morrell  25:35  

that's so neat. That's, that's kind of crazy. And so yeah, this new kind of remote world allows us to, you know, go off to these different destinations that we wouldn't typically think of my wife and I took our kids down to Savannah, Georgia, from the New York City region. We love it so far. But I'm not really planning. I don't think I'm ever going back to an office. What do you think the kind of future for UX design working out of big cities is you think it's a we'll all go back one day, or

Ellie Millen  26:09  

I think it's really going to depend on the company, I can see if if it's a company that is really devoted to so having in person, I know that Dropbox just released a couple days an article that they are working on making, like fully turning their offices into collaborative spaces, instead of kind of like, work zones. So that so that the actual point of gathering is a little bit more crystallized and confirmed. I think it's going to be a spectrum, I there gonna be some places to go like, yep, fully remote. That's great, cool. We don't have to have office space anymore, we can save a bunch of money and not really lose anything in productivity, which is incredible. And I hope more places understand that. Um, but there are also going to be places where like, Yeah, you do want to gather sometimes physically in person, what, like, my dream absolutely, would be to have like, one week, a month, or every other sprint or something that is designated for folks to gather, or once a quarter or set some sort of some sort of time period where we are all gathering from our disparate, disparate locations. To have that time and to have not just not just the time to work, but the time to kind of bond and build that trust as a team. It can be done fully remotely, it absolutely can. But I don't think we as humans will ever fully lose that desire to like, know, the like, like encounter in 3d meatspace that people that we work with, and that we enjoy?

Ellie Millen  27:42  

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that's the perfect use of an office space is, yeah, maybe once a quarter, once a month, whatever the timeframe is, is to have a big workshop, but you know, more of a workshop, not just to come to a solution on something, but see everybody and grow the team and build the trust and communication. And all those connections, like so important. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And so, where do you go for inspiration, these days to, you know, keep up on things. And,

Ellie Millen  28:15  

yeah, I go to all sorts of places, I there are, I have a book list a mile long. I love reading about, I mean, I think anything that you put into your brain, it doesn't just have to be UX, it doesn't just have to be this psychology, interface work, you know, all of those things that are that are kind of close by but also our history. I mean, like get get into your, the weird side passions that you have, and bring those things back because human beings are amazing, like human beings have done a lot of cool stuff in in our time on the, you know, in this environment. So like, I think inspiration can come from anywhere. In terms of keeping up with trends medium is always a great, you know, you can it's like a democratized platform, you can kind of take from it, what works for you and what doesn't, but there's so many voices on there that don't necessarily hit mainstream publishing, people of color who are practicing people who are disabled who are speaking to like, you know, the the implications of the ADA and where that's falling short and not serving us anymore, and how it needs to be improved and how design can be improved to be more aware and inclusive and all those kinds of things. So I think there are a lot of really important voices and independent publishing.

Thomas Morrell  29:40  

Fantastic, fantastic. And so I know you're taking a break, but um, any kind of inclination to what's next for you?

Ellie Millen  29:48  

Yeah, I'm, I'm in general, as I kind of look, look for where I go next. What I do next is that there is an item Towards video games. I don't know exactly how that expresses. But it's been a passion my whole life, I have some friends who are in the industry and every single time I see what they're working on, I'm like, oh, there's some there's some cool stuff going on in in not just necessarily publicly facing interface work, but also the interfaces that lead game designers do what they do. Okay, so like, like, I think I think everyone looks at consumer facing and it's like, oh, I you know, I want to work on something that I can point my friends and family to and say I worked on that. That's great. Not knocking that at all. But there are some really interesting problems to solve behind the scenes you have instant access to your users like theirs. And and you're helping people still make really cool stuff. So there's, there's some stuff behind the curtain. This is a really interesting space that I think a lot of people discount and keep an eye out.

Thomas Morrell  30:53  

Oh, that's really cool. Video games is, I think such a neat industry. And it's exploding. And there's all sorts of new stuff with like VR and AR and all that. I love it. I was actually, like, my first internship was the packaging and advertising for video games. And I loved it. That was such a cool place to work. But I really can't thank you enough for coming on. Before we go, maybe just if there's somebody out, I know, we both kind of got our start in graphic design, that type of area. So maybe just some words of advice for graphic designers thinking maybe UX is a thing for me. What would you tell them in order to get them started in the right direction. Um,

Ellie Millen  31:38  

I would tell them to to look to some of the the educational spaces. But you don't i don't think especially if you have a background in graphic design, I don't think you have to go through a boot camp to get enough to get started. Um, and there are a lot of again, there's so many resources now for learning UX, you learn UX online, learn this thing. If if it is something that you were drawn towards, or gravitate towards, go explore those in as low cost a way as you can start start getting a sense of the ropes and the principles and the day to day life of what that all is. And and then if you like it, maybe it's worth a higher investment but but initially, just see if it jives for you. There is still there still, if you like the agency model, there are tons of UX agencies, there are tons of UX consultancies I was working for, for a consultancy that had a UX arm. UX design digital arm. Yeah, but don't, don't don't feel like in order to like break into it, you have to go drop hundreds of 1000s not hundreds, but 1000s of dollars on a certification and this and that, know that there's there's a lot that you can do with understanding the principles, understand the perspectives, understanding the tools, and then doing a couple of portfolio pieces, some spec pieces. Just Just to kind of prove out again to an interviewer that like, you know, you know where you're going. And you know, how where you've been informed that

Thomas Morrell  33:13  

Oh, fantastic. Appreciate that. And so where should people go to get in touch with you or learn more?

Ellie Millen  33:20  

eg melon on everything I am trash at social media. I am the worst millennial and elder ish millennial and at all of these things, so it's mostly pictures of my dog. But she's pretty cute. In the party, and and yeah, Eg gmail.com is my website there's a contact form there and wants to get in touch. I'm I like talking to people. I like helping people out if if there's anyone who is who's who's looking for a little a little zoom coffee date or anything like that. Yeah. I'm, I'm a human being you.

Ellie Millen  33:57  

Oh, that's that's a really appreciate it. And it's wonderful to speak to you again.

Thomas Morrell

And that's the show, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you haven't already, please subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. I'll be releasing a show about every other week or so. If you'd like to be a friend of the show, leaving a review and a comment on Apple would be very much appreciated. share a link to this show with your friends, and anyone else who's interested in UX design. Feel free to recommend topics you'd like to hear discussed. And if you have any questions about design, design careers, or anything else, for that matter, you can DM me on my Instagram @userflows.live

Now, let's go create

Transcribed by https://otter.ai